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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 1669 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

Hello, Margaret.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

That brings me on to my next question. You have already mentioned CAAPD, which is the Crown Office’s criminal allegations against the police division. It has been in existence since 2013. Hundreds of cases go there, but very few result in prosecutions. Some previous witnesses have described the PIRC, CAAPD and all those other entities as being almost like a firewall around the police, rather than entities that will support officers or the public in relation to complaints.

Last week, we heard that one witness made criminal allegations about police officers to the police, which should have been reported to CAAPD but were not. Should the bill include a provision whereby either police officers or members of the public can report directly to CAAPD, to ensure that that potential gap is plugged?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

You touched on the very sensitive issue of officers dying by suicide, which the committee has discussed in the past. There have been cases of suicide by officers who, at the time, were the subject of prolonged complaints proceedings. To my extreme concern, when we raised the issue initially, the Scottish Police Authority asked Police Scotland, which responded to the SPA by saying that none of those cases was due to work-related issues. In my opinion, they were not wholly candid.

11:15  

I wonder whether, from a legislative perspective, anything could be done so that there is an automatic fatal accident inquiry when there is the suicide of an officer, as happens with deaths in custody. Every case in which a prisoner dies in custody is subject to an automatic fatal accident inquiry. None of the police officers who we know have died from suicide—some of whom were subject to on-going complaints proceedings that they deemed unfair and prolonged—was the subject of a fatal accident inquiry. Should the bill also address that issue?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

Does the bill need to ensure that, when a clear whistleblowing complaint is made, such as the one that you referred to, it is treated that way by Police Scotland and all associated bodies?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

I want to ask about Dame Elish Angiolini and the PIRC. She made more than 100 recommendations, but she stopped short of saying that Scotland should be subject to a Northern Ireland-style ombudsman. It is fair to say that your trust in Police Scotland is pretty low, based on the cases that you have dealt with. Will the bill, as it stands, result in a PIRC mark 2 that will be sufficiently credible and that will have sufficient teeth to protect members of the public and, indeed, police officers?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

I was just going to say that I do not want to hog too much time, so I will pass back to the convener, if that is okay.

10:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, spoken to some of the first witness’s clients.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

So far, your evidence has been clear and compelling. However, I suppose that some people might wonder about the fact that, even though the incident that started all this took place a decade ago, you were sufficiently motivated to come to the Parliament’s Criminal Justice Committee to talk about police complaints legislation. Will you explain how the issue has affected you and why it was so important for you to come here today?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning the table on whistleblowers, the inequality of arms that exists in terms of legal representation, the selective application of evidence and the prolonging of proceedings, which, in some cases, are prolonged year after year after year. The result of that is careers being needlessly destroyed, health often being harmed and huge financial cost to the victim. I think that most of your cases, if not all, are female officers.

To bring that back to the bill, does the bill do anything to ensure that Police Scotland no longer uses those weaponisation tactics?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Russell Findlay

I want to come in and pick up on that point, Margaret. It might be worth our while trying to improve the section that you refer to in some way, and, rather than using secondary legislation, being a bit more explicit in what the PIRC can do in that regard.