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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 1669 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Section 5 of the bill seeks to broaden the PIRC’s functions. Your organisation has commented that that

“would significantly impact on PIRC’s budget and ability to operate.”

I note, too, that in respect of section 12, your organisation has commented that, as a result of the right to call in complaints, the PIRC might

“become overwhelmed”

and that there would be

“further resource implications”.

We have heard from other witnesses, including the Scottish Police Federation, that the financial cost of the bill has already risen according to the financial memorandum, and that they believe that the cost will be higher still. What is the PIRC’s latest official assessment of the cost?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

The language used by the inspector was that freezing cases was “open to abuse” and was being used inappropriately “for no discernible reason”. The report also states that CAAPD

“had developed an unhealthy and misguided approach to managing its targets”,

and that it

“masked the reality of what was happening”

and misled everyone from the general public right through to the Lord Advocate.

I understand that you have put that right. Given that report, and the fact that we have heard so much evidence from witnesses about a lack of trust, do you believe that the public can trust the data that is coming from CAAPD?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

There was another case subsequent to that one in which a female police officer from the Moray area made multiple internal allegations of an employment nature and a criminal nature, which were kept in-house and withheld from the relevant authorities. That officer has also been publicly critical of the PIRC. Although the PIRC unblocked that case by identifying and investigating those allegations, which, up until then, had not been done, the subsequent report into the entire case has not been published. Can you explain why that would be?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I would just be interested to know whether, given the increased use of diversion from prosecution within the broader criminal justice system, we are seeing that mirrored in the cases that you deal with.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

That leads me on to my next question. We have heard evidence of cases in which complainers, whether members of the public or police officers, believed that what they had imparted had subsequently been shared with CAAPD—as is right and proper—but that had not been the case. Are you confident that the situation has improved, now that a lot more scrutiny is being applied to those particular cases and the wider issues, or can the legislation itself be improved to ensure that that does happen?

12:00  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

One of the non-legislative recommendations of the Angiolini review was that the PIRC should investigate all on-duty allegations of assault made against police officers. That has been happening since October 2021 and it has had a significant impact on your workload. Can you quantify what that has meant for the organisation in typical numbers of cases or as a proportion of your workload?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I would like to return to the point that was raised by Rona Mackay on the HM Inspectorate of Prosecution in Scotland report from 2021, which talked about CAAPD freezing cases, and you have already referred to that. The detail of that report is actually quite shocking. It said that cases were frozen while you were gathering or requesting additional work to be done. In some cases, I think that it reset the clock rather than just paused it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

That answer illustrates neatly how complicated the landscape is for a member of the public. If that were represented as a flow chart, it would be quite confusing.

Communication with complainers—whether they are police officers or members of the public—is vital. To go back to the HMIPS report, it said that communication from CAAPD was unsatisfactory in four in 10 of the 80 cases that were looked at. The report contains quite detailed accounts, some of which are pretty shocking, to be frank.

You came into your post when that report was produced. What can you say about the quality of communication from CAAPD now?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but, as the PIRC, are you now confident that, if similar cases arose now or in the future, Police Scotland would treat them properly?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

That is interesting.