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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 1669 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Good morning, panel. It is still morning—there are four minutes to go.

The bill comes with a financial memorandum, which initially gave costs of £1.4 million. The costs are now in the region of £5.8 million, with updated figures from Police Scotland. The Scottish Police Federation said that it will cost many multiples of even that later figure. Do you agree with the SPF’s assessment? Do you have more up-to-date figures, or are they constantly evolving as the bill progresses?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I have perhaps misunderstood the written submission. Are you saying that the public interest test would apply only in cases after the 12-month period had elapsed, if a matter arose, or would it also apply in any case within the 12-month window?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

The witnesses whom we have heard from, some of whom have been whistleblowers, have experienced what has been described as a “weaponisation” of the process—it has been turned against them. We questioned the Scottish Police Federation a couple of weeks ago, and it has issues with the bill. It acknowledged that it was a problem that some of their members were suffering due to attempting to blow the whistle.

Without getting bogged down in the legislation, which you have not had a chance to properly scrutinise, I wonder whether, having spoken to witnesses, you have seen any evidence of a change in culture in Police Scotland in that regard.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

There was an example of that in Scotland recently, with Police Scotland reaching a settlement with a female officer from Moray, in the north of Scotland. She had attempted to report bullying and, indeed, criminality, but she found that others turned against her and her life was made a misery. It took many years.

I suppose that I am answering my own question in that the bill can attempt to remedy it, but the culture needs strong leadership.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Absolutely.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Absolutely.

One of your recommendations is for gross misconduct hearings for officers of all ranks to be held in public. The version in the bill covers officers of senior rank only. In its evidence, the Scottish Police Federation described such hearings as being “like a public flogging”. The Association of Scottish Police Superintendents said that it was like putting officers “in the stocks”. The ASPS also expressed concerns about the sensitivity of personal information. What would your response be to those concerns?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I believe that, when you were conducting your review, you spoke to a number of witnesses, both members of the public and police officers, past and present, and I think that we have heard from some of the same individuals. In many cases involving police whistleblowers, careers have been destroyed, people’s health has been harmed—often for life—and they have suffered huge financial impact. In the cases that we have heard about, much of that was avoidable and good people were lost from policing. Does the bill do enough to protect whistleblowers?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

When you were tasked with your role, which led to the proposed legislation that was born out of your report, you were not asked to appraise the costs, but the Scottish Government’s financial memorandum for the bill initially put the cost of what is being proposed at £1.4 million, and the Government has now reassessed that at £5.8 million. Some witnesses, including some from the Scottish Police Federation, think that it will be many multiples of that figure.

It is not your job to assess the costs, but is there an argument that whatever the cost of the proposals, within reason, it would be an investment in preserving public trust, protecting good officers and giving them the confidence to raise complaints and blow the whistle if need be?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Good morning, Lady Elish.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Yes, such as in medical, legal or social services. If there is sensitive information, the chair or judge can clear the room or put reporting restrictions in place.