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Bob Doris speaks to a very real and live concern. The fact that we are meeting this morning as teachers are striking does not escape me. It is fair to note that more is being asked of teachers and additional support needs assistants in schools and that there are, in fact, fewer of them than there used to be, which is part of the problem.

I go back to my earlier comment: it is absolutely not my intention to put something in place that burdens people, with them not having the resources or capacity to deal with the issue. Part of the problem with the implementation gap, which Ruth Maguire mentioned at the start of this morning’s evidence session, is exactly that.

I also argue that one reason why teachers are striking today relates to the additional stress that they experience from supporting all young people, including young disabled people, in their classes.

I thank Ruth Maguire for that question.

There are a number of reasons for the implementation gap, and you have highlighted some of them. They include issues around culture, education and support, training, awareness raising and resources. Crucially, however, policy is driven by legislation, and I believe that the current policy and legislative framework is not driving the change that we need. I will take a moment to talk through the current structures and why I do not think that they are what we need right now. The Scottish Government’s own literature review, which was published this week, recognised that there have been significant failures across guidance and, indeed, in implementation.

The Fraser of Allander Institute reflected that transitions do not need to be difficult if they are well planned and well managed. However, the evidence suggests that that is rarely the case. The Royal College of Occupational Therapists told the committee:

“Everyone feels that they are working in crisis mode at the moment, which means that transitions and long-term planning are taking a step back.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 1 February 2023; c 32.]

That highlights one of the serious concerns about implementation. When the going gets tough, it is always disabled people who end up having to get going. We have seen that happen through various different economic crises, including the Covid-19 pandemic and the current cost of living crisis. We know, therefore, that the implementation gap exists, but we also know that, when it is not a statutory duty to provide something for disabled people, it is not provided. That is the stark reality of the society that we are living in. We really need the legislation to drive the policy.

The Law Society agrees. It has said that a national transitions strategy would contribute to achieving all

“the rights accorded by the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities by ensuring that all relevant policies and planning—as well as individual planning—achieves that purpose.”

It went on to say:

“we would suggest that significant improvement is unlikely to be achieved without legislative measures.”

Much of that rests in the legislative structure created by the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004. The 2004 act provides for a co-ordinated support plan to be made available. We know that very few people get a co-ordinated support plan, but we also know that the transitions plans that would be covered by the legislation are limited in nature, given the purpose of the co-ordinated support plan. They focus only on education, and they are not deliberately targeted at disabled people, whom the bill is intended to support.

We recognise that there is a significant underrepresentation of disabled people in employment and those going on to positive destinations. The bill seeks to address that group of people and to support them. The statutory guidance locates the planning process within the 2004 act and within a child’s plan, but the part of the legislation that contained the child’s plan was repealed in 2019, which left a huge gap in provision. The duties in the 2004 act cover all pupils with additional support needs, but that is limited by the words “think fit (if any)”, and the local authority might not think it fit to exchange information or to put in place a plan for a young disabled person.

It is a different group of people that we are looking to support under the bill. We are looking to address the significant discrimination and oppression faced by a group of people who have a protected characteristic and who are disabled people under the Equality Act 2010. The duties and regulations in the 2004 act are caveated in that they apply

“only in relation to such children and young persons as the authority consider appropriate.”

The review of co-ordinated support plans, which comes under the 2004 act, considered that there is a need for clarity in the relationship between those plans, child plans and other plans. In fact, the review suggested a one child, one plan approach, and I contend that the bill would deliver that.

The point that you ended on, about bringing in legislation to support that and make it happen, is key. As I said in my earlier answer, possibly to Stephen Kerr or Graeme Dey—forgive me, I cannot remember who it was—about putting the principles into practice, there are opportunities for us to say what is working really well and what is not working. There are lots of things that we can do to improve the practice on the ground—of course there are. However, ultimately, legislation drives policy and policy drives practice—or it should, as I think we all know. That is why I believe that we need to look at this.

On the points that you have just made—about the practitioner saying that it is just another plan in a pile, that there are lots of other plans and that it is all a bit much, so we should perhaps just focus on what needs to be done—all the reviews of the current ASL legislation agree with that practitioner. They say that there is too much, to an extent, and that we need a one child, one plan focus. That is what the bill provides.

Excellent. I am glad to be on the front foot for a change.

They are doing that. I know that because the data on young people with additional support needs is broken down by large numbers of categories of impairment. So, organisations know who those children and young people are. I also think that it is not the case that teachers and schools do not know which pupils in their classes need the extra support and who could be considered a disabled person. They have very good relationships with them.

There is no mechanism for us to replace the financial memorandum once it is laid before the Parliament, but we have met COSLA to talk about the financial memorandum.

That is the question that I am trying to answer with the bill. I point to what Bill Scott has just said in relation to modern apprentices, and I will add to the answer to Willie Rennie’s question, which I thank him for.

Right now, we could say, “This co-ordinated support plan was not put in place”—actually, given the statistics, we would be more likely to say, “There was no co-ordinated support plan.” We are still dealing with one person after another, each in an isolated situation. That means that we are constantly firefighting, and there is nothing that pulls all that work together.

The bill will do two things in that context. First, it will put on a statutory footing the need for a national strategy that looks at how we will address those issues. I have already made a comment about the purpose of and the need to do that. Secondly, it will give individual rights. It will do both things at the same time.

Nobody wants to be associated with not doing what is right for disabled people, and most people who work in that field set out every day to do the right thing and as much as they possibly can, but disabled people are constantly told, “That circumstance was a one-off” or “That happened only in this situation—it does not happen in all situations.” We really need to have a broader focus on that, as well. The strategy part of the bill suggests that.

I will finish on your final question, Stephanie. I am sorry—I am not suggesting that it was your final question. I am not chairing the meeting.

In a number of cases, what we suggest will be accurate. However, I have seen and acknowledge the SCLD’s evidence.

The approach to calculating the hours that will be needed to ascertain what sort of support people will need is based on decades of work with disabled people and their parents, and with disabled people’s organisations, including the SCLD. We have come to the best possible conclusion on the issue. Such things are always open to discussion—that is the purpose of parliamentary scrutiny, which is really important.

Thank you for your question. On your first point, I would expect nothing less than significant scrutiny from the committee, because we are talking about a bill that, I hope, will get on to the statute book at some point. If we put something into statute, we need to be absolutely sure about it. I have learned that—very much so—since becoming a member of the Parliament. I expect scrutiny and have prepared as best I can for your interrogation, which I think is the word that the convener used. Someone said to me earlier, “It will not be interrogation; it will be scrutiny”. Either way, I am here to answer your questions and I undertake to come back to the committee with further detail, particularly on the difference between COSLA’s estimates and ours.

I would also like to put on record my thanks to the petitioner for drawing this really important issue to the attention of not just this committee but other committees and, indeed, the Parliament.

I am particularly concerned about the issues that have been raised about people who have been victims of, or witnesses to, crime and who felt unable to present what they had seen or experienced because of a lack of support to communicate in the way that they needed. It is really important that we do a bit of extra work before we close the petition.

I am keen that we explore what the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service is doing, what Police Scotland’s understanding is and what local authorities are doing around the use of an appropriate adult in situations where a person needs support to communicate with the police.

Once we have established those lines of communication and enabled that work to continue, we will be in a position to say that we can close the petition. I feel that we need to do that little bit extra work and then we will get there.

Again, I would like to say thanks very much to the petitioner.

Thank you. I appreciate that. My understanding is that, of the £400 million-odd, about £28 million is coming from your budget and the rest is coming from Barnett consequentials—