Seòmar agus comataidhean

I refer members of the panel and the committee to the declaration of interests that I made at the start of this meeting, in which I said that Barry Black has carried out some policy development work for me—as he has indicated on his submission for today’s meeting. I will direct my questions to Professor Donaldson and Professor Priestley.

The conversation that we just had about culture and structure touched on changes happening without the front line knowing. I want to pick up on something in your evidence, Professor Priestley, where you note that not separating the award and regulation functions of the SQA is a mistake. You cite the higher history paper example, which we know caused significant concern among pupils and teachers. Is the bill sufficient to protect against such issues happening again? If not, what would you change?

I appreciate your answer, which is helpful with regards to the SQA point as well. We have heard points from Professor Muir, you and others around structure and culture. Is there anything missing from the bill that could change the culture?

Good morning. I want to declare an interest with regard to today’s evidence taking, particularly the second panel, when we will hear from Barry Black. As he has noted in his submission, which has been given in advance, Barry has carried out policy development work for me. As such, I will not be directing any questions towards him this morning. Thank you.

On the point about industrial relations, it is probably fair to say that the minister is aware of what I think about how things have been going over recent months and years, and I have called several times for the Government, and the minister, to intervene to help things out. I will come to the resolution that you reached last week, which I am pleased was able to be reached. However, before I do that, I will build on Evelyn Tweed’s questions.

The Strathesk report has not yet had a full response from the Government, but there are a couple of outstanding questions from both sides, if we can call them that. One issue is that there does not seem to be much information flow between the meetings of employers and trade unions. Another issue is that the approach to facility time or the ability to engage in such meetings seems at times to be a bit imbalanced, with trade unions feeling that they do not get enough facility time to participate entirely. There is also an issue around the question of an independent chair.

What is the minister’s response to all that, and how will he address the issue of trust in the machinery?

That will be welcome. As you will be aware, when Shona Struthers from Colleges Scotland gave evidence to the committee, she said that she had

“never quite seen the college sector as it is now.”

I hope that you agree that colleges are key to delivering the skills that we need to grow our economy and to boost and build our public services. Shona Struthers also said:

“If you are not going to invest”—

you said clearly that the situation will not be addressed by an injection of cash, which is difficult—

“at least be clear about what it is that you ... want to be delivered”.—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 12 June 2024; c 3, 29.]

I ask you, minister, if and when you will provide the sector with the five-year plan that it has asked for, and what you expect of colleges. What is your plan for them to help to deliver those ambitions?

A number of colleges would recognise that but, generally, part of the problem is that they have faced such significant cuts over the past decade at least that they are now struggling very much to even attract any training opportunities from employers in their communities, because they do not have the capacity. One of the suggestions to help colleges was to reduce their credits by about 10 per cent without being punished. However, in effect, that is reducing the opportunities for students and the likelihood of delivering skills and capacity in a college to meet local demand, so I do not see how it is possible for colleges to do what you have said in the situation that they face right now, which you will know has been described as a bit of a “burning platform”.

Do I have time for one more question?

Yes—of course.

I have a question on the flexibilities and the demand-led budget lines. I think that approximately £6 million will come out of the student support budget on the basis of it not being used last year on the demand-led line—that is what we saw at the beginning of the process. Is it not a bit circular that reductions to colleges’ credits mean that they struggle to meet the demand that they want to meet, which means that students therefore do not access as many courses, which means, in turn, that the demand drops? Does the minister think that there is likely to be genuinely less need for student support funding this year than there was last year?

Yes.