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I frequently talk to the cabinet secretary about small-scale fruit and veg, and the small producers pilot fund is brought up each time. However, when I talk to small-scale producers, they say that that is not working for them, because it only does things such as setting up a website and so on. If that is the route that we are going down, I do not think that people will be happy. Will you talk about that? Also, will you say a bit more about who the members of the POs are, and what scale of producer is in a PO?

You say that the producer organisation funding works very well in Scotland, but the UK is moving away from that form of funding. Will you talk about that, too?

That is great news about the capital fund. How much is it?

A pilot capital fund. What does that mean?

The pressure is not to do with those POs running out of funding at the end of their contracts. Rather, it is to do with the idea that growers outwith Scotland could access the scheme.

I will pick up on the convener’s question about the three POs. How long do their existing contracts run for? When do they expire?

That was revelatory. It also added more confusion, in a way. There is possibly something else going on here as well. There are a couple of different needs for the agricultural budget. There are people who want to produce food that feeds people in Scotland—to produce it locally and direct to sale and all that—and there are producer organisations. My research shows that a small percentage of what those organisations grow feeds people in Scotland—the rest goes for export south of the border and, potentially, elsewhere.

I wonder whether we need to acknowledge that there are two different strands: there is a commodity side to agriculture and food production that is producing for export further afield, and there is the good food nation approach whereby we need to support those local producers, so that when climate change and nature breakdown hit, people in the islands or other rural communities can get food that is locally produced.

I concur with Tim Eagle’s points. I am going to vote no in this case and try to bottom out more information and more understanding. However, between now and the SSI coming to the chamber, I would like to get assurances from the minister on action that supports other people. We are talking about small producers, but, in this context, we are talking about vegetable and fruit producers. They are all professional and very capable of producing food.

I want to go back to something that George Burgess said. We are continuing the scheme, which is to do with the fact that English producers could access the Scottish budget. That is not catastrophic, but it is concerning that they could tap into the budget. However, there is an exclusivity in the programme, because market gardeners or direct-to-sales people cannot get into the schemes.

George Burgess spoke about the requirements for a £1 million turnover and for a minimum of five producer organisations. I think that there is also a requirement to contribute 100 per cent, or at least 75 per cent, of your production to the producer organisation. If you have a direct-to-sales set up and already sell direct to your customers, that will not work for you.

People are trying to access the funding, because it provides the support around production planning, quality improvement, and so on that would help them to develop and grow. However, they cannot access that because the producer organisation requirement does not fit their business model. More and more people are selling direct to the market or are small-scale market gardeners who produce locally. I know that the minister is very fond of farmers’ markets in Scotland, as he was involved in setting up the first one.

We have the design of an SSI. The minister is saying that the scheme is working for the three POs that support a number of farmers, but it is excluding many other people who are doing the best that they can and are struggling with climate and nature challenges. They also feeding people in Scotland; they are involved in the good food nation resilience that we really need. For me, that is the issue.

I also want to flag up the implication that, if you are not in a PO, you do not want to collaborate; I do not think that that is true. Some small producers cannot be in producer organisations and are incredibly collaborative. Some are in parts of Scotland where the geography makes it difficult to collaborate in some of the ways that POs would ask of them. I hear the need to pass the SSI, but I am concerned about why we are hurrying to do so. If there are existing contracts and the existing POs are okay for another 18 months or so—

Can you give us a timescale? Saying that you are actively looking at it does not build confidence .

Are producers who are based in England part of the three POs that we have now?