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That is fine.

Thank you for doing that piece of work.

I think that that is right: this requires a change of mindset. It is not just a matter of thinking about the cost of the house; it is about understanding the costs over the time for which the person is living there. I am certainly aware of people who live in houses with air-source heat pumps who are absolutely delighted and who have a very nice temperature in their homes. Indeed, I like to go and visit them.

Thank you. We sometimes have a challenge figuring out which Government people are talking about.

Okay. I have another couple of questions that came out of the previous conversation. David Bookbinder raised some concerns around planning departments that involved planning permission being held up because of a lack of understanding. He described a situation where a housing association wanted to put air-source heat pumps on balconies but the planning department said, “You need to put them on the roof,” which would have a much greater cost. Are there things that we need to iron out in that regard?

Thanks. Pam Gosal has a supplementary question.

Thank you very much. We move on to questions from Ivan McKee.

In our earlier evidence session we heard from Peter Drummond, who said that the regulations represent two sides of the same coin with regard to the Passivhaus standard. Will you say a little more about that? Earlier you mentioned how that fits into the much bigger picture of what you are trying to do.

I suspend the meeting to allow a changeover of officials.

There will be a division.

For

Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)

Against

Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)