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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 671 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

I think that that, in and of itself, would potentially not be a breach of the bill’s provisions. In all of the scenarios that have been played out over this evidence session and in the session with the minister, the context of what is happening at the moment in question will be key. I believe that something additional would have to be involved for that to be a breach. As the minister has said, that will be for the police to deal with when they arrive at the scene of a complaint.

Here in committee, we cannot play out every scenario that might arise. As I have said previously, the provisions might not stop someone complaining about such a symbol being displayed, but, in the absence of any further context, I doubt that that is something that the police would take action on.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

That comes back to my point to the convener. The desire was expressed to have the ability to move efficiently. As we all know, parliamentary procedures can—rightly—take some time for the level of evidence taking and so on. I absolutely accept the point that has been made by campaigners, and by you, that a Government that was less sympathetic to treating abortion as healthcare could move in a different direction.

I am more than happy to speak to members between stage 1 and stage 2 about whether we have the balance right or whether we need to do other things to give people comfort that we have the relevant oversight for the bill.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

This is all about proportionality. If it was proportionate to reduce the zones, the Government would have to look at them in the same manner.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

The flexibility in the bill allows us to take targeted approaches, which would depend on where we saw activity in premises that are not currently among the 30 protected premises. We need to ensure that people have the ability to make their views known in other places.

I do not take for granted the potential coverage that could be created if all GP services and pharmacies were included. As I said, we are not seeing protests in such places at the moment. There is sufficient flexibility in the bill to take reasonable and targeted approaches, even for premises that are not currently among the 30 that the bill covers at the moment.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Very few people offered any alternatives, and, often, the alternative that was suggested was simply not to have the zones at all. That probably chimes with some of the testimony that you have heard over the past few weeks, which suggests that, broadly, people’s position is either that we should have the zones or that we should have no zones.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Can you clarify that a little? Can you give me a scenario?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

The answer is potentially a bit of both. I know that the minister has undertaken to write to the committee on that. I do not want to prejudge what the minister will come back with, but I think that the reasonable person test will be present throughout this piece of legislation.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

The bill provides for the power to reduce the size of a zone. I very much hope that the legislation would have the desired effect and that we would not see any more activity around hospitals. I cannot say in advance how far we might reduce the zones if the behaviours that we are currently seeing ceased or moved to more appropriate places, as we have been calling for throughout the passage of the bill, but it is right that we have that power.

I know that the committee has heard a variety of views on a minimum reduction distance as well as on the potential for a maximum extension distance. I am more than happy to engage with committee members and others on their thoughts and views on that between stage 1 and stage 2.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

I think that there is a misunderstanding there. The committee has had correspondence from the Law Society of Scotland, which believes that the bill is defined and written tightly enough not to curtail other protests.

The other thing to mention is that the Supreme Court judgment on the bill for Northern Ireland, which this bill is similar to, did not flag up any issues of infringement on other protests. So, given the evidence in front of you, and given how tightly the bill is drawn in focusing on abortion services, I do not have any concerns about it infringing on other protests.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

To my mind, that would not be covered under the intent aspect of the provisions, and I do not think that it would come under the reckless aspect, either. Recklessly causing an offence is covered in quite a lot of law across the Scottish statute book. I do not believe that a priest simply attending to visit parishioners would be covered. Many of them also work in hospital chaplaincies, and I do not think that that would be covered, either.