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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 2186 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

I was quite relieved to hear what Mike Corbett said just now, because I was beginning to wonder where the pattern of the discussion was going.

I would like to refer to issues related to classroom management, classroom sizes and teacher training, but I want to begin with some words of a whistleblower that were reported in The Herald a couple of months ago. It was a teacher who was talking about the experience that they were having. I have a suspicion that it relates to one specific school, but I will read the general comments that are reported in that news article. The teacher said:

“I’ve worked in schools in difficult places and it was not like this. Other places were run with precision and you could have great relationships with the kids because the place was so well structured and they felt safe.”

The whistleblower goes on to talk about something called the Pivotal behaviour method, which apparently is a system based on restorative justice. The teacher goes on to say:

“We can’t pick apart what actually is policy, such as the city-wide no exclusions policy, and what is some dogmatic theory that management seem to be following.

Senior management follow this script in terms of language, using very euphemistic language so that even when you’re having an informal conversation with a senior manager you can’t use terms like ‘consequences’.

When you speak to them it’s not like having a normal human interaction and I think, for the kids, it is very confusing.

You always work with children from a place of kindness and empathy—but you’re very clear with what you expect them to do and give them very clear boundaries.”

11:00  

That is backed up by the evidence from Tom Bennett. He talks about creating an environment in a school, and in the classroom, where a culture is set that

“Violence ... is unacceptable; where students incur instant penalties for doing so; where suspensions and exclusion are used as last resorts in the worst scenarios.”

He says that

“Anything less than this fails to keep children and staff safe, which is the fundamental responsibility of the school.”

I would like to hear some views on the comments from the whistleblower—I think that that person might be a member of Mike Corbett’s union, judging by the way that it was written—and on the general approach of setting clear boundaries and having known sanctions, perhaps agreed with pupils, that are applied. Those would include exclusion in the worst cases, as a last resort, so that the individuals concerned are not allowed to disrupt the 29 others or to continue to physically or verbally abuse—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

Do you want to start, Mike?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

But there should be something after that, should there not? Exclusion should not mean that the pupil is banished.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

Sure.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

But I am saying that that is how the teachers feel.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

I think that I know what Mike Corbett might say, so—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

I think that your causation and linkage is—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

But it is very extreme to say that we should not have any exclusions, because—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

Yes.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Violence in Schools

Meeting date: 14 June 2023

Stephen Kerr

If they need to be excluded, there needs to be a referral to somewhere else.