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What I think I am hearing—if my interpretation and comprehension skills are what they should be—is that change is quite difficult to manage in your organisations, in terms of integration and working together. I am referring to the evidence that you have submitted in writing. For example, in its submission, North Lanarkshire IJB mentioned concern about the impact that the bill would have in that

“a significant change programme”

could

“cause ... partner bodies to look inwards for a period to address organisational concerns”.

Similarly, Dundee City Council mentioned that the proposed changes would “create greater complexity”, which would cause disruption in established working relationships. Am I interpreting that correctly? Can you help me?

Can I hear some comments from other members of the panel on what I have just said? I quoted the Northern Alliance evidence, which says that children’s services will be swallowed up and lost in the context of adult services.

I do not want to broaden it; I want to do exactly what you have suggested, convener.

First, I turn to Nicky Connor, who is from Fife Council. Your written evidence states:

“there is no evidence to including children’s services in a NCS and the disruption that structural reform would cause would be of benefit to children and young people.”

That is a stark comment. Would you like to elaborate?

I will ask my last question and then we can go to Fiona.

The bill is an enabling bill and it contains very little detail about what a national care service would look like. Basically, we are told that the powers will be transferred to ministers and that we will find out at some future point the detail of what the national care service’s design and structures will look like. From your point of view, is that a sensible way to make the change that you have, in part, just advocated?

I have probably taken enough time, so I will stick with Vicky Irons for my last question.

You talk about resources. Resources, particularly money and time, are finite. Jude Currie, given the challenges that were outlined so eloquently by Martin Crewe, is it wise that we take up time and money to do something that is basically structural, that will be process heavy and that will create new and challenging interfaces, particularly in relation to children’s services, which will be a small part of an overall service?

That is not what the Northern Alliance said. In its evidence, it stated:

“The main risk of locating children’s social work and social care in the National Care Service is that they will become a very small component of a large complex organisation which has a predominantly adult focus.”

That is diametrically the opposite of what you have just said.

Is that an argument for including children’s services in the NCS or is it an argument for the status quo?

Is it sensible to do it that way round? Is it sensible to do it in the way that ministers are doing it, rather than our understanding the implications of a national care service during the passage of the bill?

It is. It is kind of the opposite of what we heard from Dundee.