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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 21 November 2025
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Displaying 2888 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

I have one last question, convener. I suppose that, at the heart of all this, is putting HES right, because of the important role that HES plays and because of the excellent people who work inside the organisation and who are having to put up with all the noise around the leadership.

In a letter you sent to me yesterday, you highlight the significance of the appointment of Sir Mark Jones—and he was here last week—and that he has rightly set out his priority to ensure that HES has the trust of the public and its partners. Then you go on, in a paragraph that I am happy to share with the rest of the committee, to describe what the Scottish Government will do to support him, which I respect.

As you know, Sir Mark Jones was here last week, and he is giving one or two days a week. He is a non-executive chairman. How on earth is it realistic to expect Sir Mark—who I think that we all respect for the work that he has undertaken on all our behalf in HES—to be able to get to the root of all this without an independent investigation being launched, I think by you, cabinet secretary, to support him?

Sir Mark Jones going into the office one or two days a week will not solve this problem. It will take something far more strategic and far more significant in an independent set out of outcomes, with recommendations that he will be able to enact as the chairman. Do you not agree that, if you are not helping him in that practical way now, we are expecting an awful lot from the chairman, given his commitment, given his two days a week and given the depth of the issues that he has to deal with?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

I do. You do not have to explain it to me.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

Before you answer, I note that last week a board member sat in that very seat and said something quite different from what we are hearing this morning.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

During the time that you have been cabinet secretary, how many times did you meet Hugh Hall in his role as chairman of HES?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

So if Sir Mark asked you, in support of his office, to appoint a truly independent investigator to come up with recommendations for him and the other members of the board to enact, you would be sympathetic.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

He is here to be held to account and I do not need that interaction to be explained to me. I do not need how the process is supposed to work to be mansplained to me.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

No, I do not mean at events. When was the last time that you had a formal meeting?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

No, that was at an event.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

That is not a meeting, cabinet secretary. If you meet at an event and you stand in line together and you chit-chat together, that does not constitute a formal meeting. There are no records of any formal meetings between you and Hugh Hall when he was the chairman of HES.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

Cabinet secretary, there are no records of any formal meetings between you and the board. There are no records of any formal meetings between you and the chairman of HES for the four-and-a-half years that you have been the cabinet secretary. Given the state of HES, particularly in the last 18 months or so, I consider that to be, frankly, a dereliction of duty on your part as an accountable member of the Scottish Government for that very important body.