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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 December 2024
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Displaying 1830 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

The refresh is obviously in focus because it is in your report—that is good, and it is the reason that I can ask these questions. Do you expect that the dial will now shift? If so, over what period? Will it be over the next year or over the next two years, for example?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

A key element of effectiveness for anyone who is involved in the process is the speed of decision making. How critical is that?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

To be absolutely clear—I am aware of this, convener—this committee’s jurisdiction does not encroach on the area of councillors.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

With your permission, convener, I would like to illustrate the issue of the speed of decision making by referring to what is in the report about councillors. It looks as though the average stage 1 complaint takes around 160 days, I think—I cannot tell—before someone goes to stage 2 or has the complaint against them dismissed, in effect. It is then a further 180 days at stage 2. It is therefore possible that a complaint against an individual—I am using this only for illustrative purposes, and I appreciate that another committee will talk to you about councillors—could take the best part of a year.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

I have illustrated one example with regard to councillors. You might refer to that, to MSPs or to public bodies. How much of an improvement will there be in your key performance indicators in the report that we will be looking at a year from now?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

If there is time.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

Yes—thank you, deputy convener. Jackie Dunbar made a point about delay, which I mentioned, too. What consideration do you give to the wellbeing of people who are on the receiving end of complaints? I am operating from a background of knowing some of the stresses that colleagues have gone through. In one case, the person concerned left public life, in effect. I do not think that I am saying anything that has not already been said in public by that person. I think that that was a disaster, because that person had so much to give. How much consideration do you give to the wellbeing of the people who are the subject of complaints?

10:15  

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

That is a very strong suggestion. Based on the experience of colleagues, I think that that service is badly needed. We probably all have colleagues who have been through such experiences and have been left feeling diminished, which is exactly the opposite of what we have been talking about for the entirety of your evidence—namely, creating an environment in the public service that makes people want to come forward and give of themselves, because, frankly, that is what our country needs. Therefore, I appreciate what you have said.

I will return to the strategic plan and its objectives. I hope that you will not mind my saying this. I hear what you say and am in accord with everything that you say about prioritising complainers and respondents, and so on. However, I was a little perturbed to see that, of the nine specific strategic objectives in the plan, none of the first three relates to any of that. The first three objectives, at least, relate to internal things.

That seems a bit strange to me, and I will tell you why. When you did your very honest assessment of the key issues and risks that you deal with in your report, you identified the number 1 risk—correctly, I think—as being “Loss of stakeholder confidence”. However, in responding to those key issues and risks, the way that the plan is laid out—I suppose that I am giving you an opportunity to say that the way that it is laid out does not necessarily represent the prioritisation—means that it comes across as being very inward looking, as opposed to the risk, which is about what is happening as far as your stakeholders are concerned. Does what I am saying make sense?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

That is fine. You mentioned that you are carrying out a customer satisfaction survey, which is really good news. I strongly believe in the value of such surveys. However, it would be very interesting to know whether you have conducted, are conducting or will conduct surveys among stakeholders, because you talk about “Loss of stakeholder confidence” in the annual report. Have you done a stakeholder survey and not published it, or have I not seen it? Is that in the works?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Ethical Standards Commissioner

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Stephen Kerr

It is about being able to disagree agreeably, which is proving to be more and more of a challenge in our public life. That, in itself, is a disincentive for people to enter public life, which, at the end of the day, is to the detriment of our country and its people.

Will you ever be able to break down the source and the nature of those types of complaints? One thing that I pick up, particularly from colleagues who are in councils, is that more complaints are being made by people in public office about other people in public office. Are you able to comment on that at all?