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Would Dr Gill Stewart or Beth Black like to add anything?

Since we are coming to the end of the session, I will do a quick summary as well.

I want to get a better perspective on the statistic that the convener referred to—the one about 36 per cent of teachers. I have just looked up the membership figures. Am I correct in thinking that the EIS represents about 55,000 members? I think that that is about right. I am not sure about the figure for the NASUWT and the SSTA, but I think that it is around 7,000. Therefore, the 36 per cent figure would be 36 per cent of the SSTA’s membership. Is that correct? Seamus is nodding. I just wanted to get a bit of perspective on that.

I think that what I am hearing marries quite a lot with what we have heard from other agencies, universities and a broad spectrum of young people. We have got pupils, practitioners and policy; politics is right at the bottom of that. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development said that, too. Moving forward, I feel quite optimistic, because a lot of your evidence triangulates with other evidence that we are hearing. It appears that there is consistency about how to move forward; there is consistency on timescales and the need for clear consultation and communication.

Is there anything that I have missed that you would like to add with regard to how we can move forward as a committee?

I want to thank our two witnesses. Implementation at local authority level is a huge challenge. I worked as a teacher throughout the whole period in question, and I pay tribute to the local authorities for responding so rapidly in unprecedented times. Today, you have explained to a wider audience the complexities involved.

I want to drill down a little further into some of the themes that the convener has raised. I am interested in the communications. Can you tell us a little more about the quality and quantity of the communications that you received, and about the timescales? Did you get the right information from the right people in the right timescales?

Thanks. It is nice to see you again, Larry. I declare interests, as a former member of the EIS and a current associate member of the NASUWT. I am also registered with the General Teaching Council for Scotland. That is that over and done with.

We have taken lots of evidence from young people over the past few weeks. I have been speaking to children, so I am trying to put that together with your presentation. I am interested to hear more. Your submission states:

“schools defaulted to running exam type assessments”,

which takes us back to Tara Lillis’s comment about compression. We heard a lot from young people about the additional stresses, but they were at great pains to say that the staff and teachers helped really well. Can you say a little bit more about how that happened, because the message was that there were meant to be no exams? How did that turn into there being multiple assessments that were regarded as exams?

I have listened with great interest, and I declare an interest: I have been a teacher for 30 years, so a lot of what you have said resonates with me. I first started teaching when we had the five-to-14 curriculum, so I was teaching at the beginning of the implementation of curriculum for excellence. It has been interesting for me to track the journey of its implementation and review.

It is great to hear that other countries are following our pioneering curriculum for excellence. As a former teacher, I agree that it provides avenues for children to express, for example, their talking and listening skills. I think that you referred to that when you fed back that children are much more articulate and able to debate and put their views across. Active citizens and responsible learners are part of the four capacities—I am familiar with those.

It is perfectly reasonable that the curriculum requires refinement after this amount of time. We have to adapt to a future that has changed, especially in the context of Covid, in relation to the different balance of skills that we will need. I note the statistic of 95 per cent of positive destinations being reached, which I think reinforces the fact that, with universities and colleges as well as apprenticeships, there is a wide range of positive pathways for our young people. I was glad to see that.

I noted the narrowing of the equity and attainment gaps. You might have noticed that we, in Scotland, sometimes suffer from the Scottish cringe a wee bit. We can do down education and certain other things, and we do not celebrate our successes as much as we should. Can I clarify that, in your opinion, Scotland’s education is performing well and is internationally regarded and that our education is not going backwards? Teachers sometimes get quite upset, as do parents and pupils, when they hear the narrative that Scottish education is not that great.

With regard to SNSAs, I totally agree with what is in the OECD report. As a practitioner, I found that SNSAs were not properly measuring the actual skills that we were teaching. I also found that disadvantaged children were even further disadvantaged by the assessments, because the examples in the questions did not resonate with those who came from poorer backgrounds. For example, stories would be set in castles—I suppose that is not a good example in Scotland, as we have a lot of castles here, but you get my general point.

Thank you for your evidence—it is really interesting. It would be helpful to hear a wee bit from you on Scotland’s standing in education internationally and across Europe.

I totally agree that we need to refine the curriculum. Are we in a good place to be able to move forward in many of the areas that you mentioned? Will our structures be fit for that purpose? Will we be able to do that?

I will try to be brief, as I am keeping an eye on the time.

I thank Dr Pont for clarifying the gap in relation to the concept of knowledge and for explaining what that means. In primary school, there is an emphasis on the application of knowledge—that is, getting pupils to do something with the knowledge that they have acquired. That involves problem-solving and critical-thinking skills. As I remember it, curriculum for excellence was based on Bloom’s taxonomy, and knowledge is at the foundation level of that triangle of higher-order thinking skills.

On assessments, I agree that they do not match up with what we are doing in terms of knowledge or how children learn as opposed to what children learn. Our young people are learning very differently. A lot of what they are doing involves the application of knowledge using critical-thinking skills and problem-solving abilities. However, our assessments do not measure that. We are still in a pencil-and-paper approach, or an online replacement for that.

I welcome the clarification that Dr Pont gave, because I do not think that everyone understands the situation. Everyone says that children must learn facts, but it is what they do with those facts that is important, because that is what will help society and help them in their jobs.

That issue also feeds into skills, which I mentioned before. We need people who can apply skills, not just people who have knowledge. That broadens out into not only university entry, but entry to colleges and apprenticeships.

Thank you to the convener and the rest of the committee. This is a dream come true for a teacher of 30 years’ experience who has worked across two local authorities and across all demographics. I hope that I can bring that experience to bear in some way. My ears will listen widely. Like the convener, I look forward to getting to know my colleagues so that we can take on together the serious work that is ahead of us.

Although I am not required to declare it, I am still a registered member of the General Teaching Council for Scotland. I was a teacher, and I was previously a member of the NASUWT. I, too, am a member of the PVG scheme.