Seòmar agus comataidhean

Thank you for that, Ms White. It is not our role to do that, but you are right to point to the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

I have met many women who have suffered from domestic violence. I have visited—[Interruption.]—Rape Crisis Scotland, for instance. Forgive my hesitation; I was trying to think of the different organisations that I have met. I have spoken directly to those women and I think that the most important thing is that the service is based around the survivor and their needs. The law is quite clear that actions must be reasonable and proportionate. I have answered questions on that and my statement is on record. However, I can flesh it out a bit by saying that, of course, it should be person centred. If we take a human rights approach and look at the human who is in front of us, we can find ways around problems; that must be the starting point.

Thank you, convener, and good morning, colleagues. I welcome the committee’s inquiry and the opportunity today to set out the range of actions that the Government is taking to advance equality and make the operation of the public sector equality duty and the Scotland-specific duties as effective as possible. The importance of such issues is highlighted at a time when efforts to advance equality, diversity and inclusion are under threat in many parts of the world. Now more than ever, Scotland must be a leader in demonstrating our commitment to continuing progress towards equality.

I want to make clear my commitment to using all measures to ensure that public authorities in Scotland properly embed equality and human rights into their delivery, with a clear focus on advancing equality, tackling discrimination and progressing the realisation of rights. That means using all available levers, which will involve both regulatory and non-regulatory change, and providing active and visible leadership. As Audit Scotland noted in evidence to the committee,

“The PSED on its own obviously cannot deliver everything”.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 4 March 2025; c 29.]

I agree, and it is notable that the Scotland-specific duties are one of the few examples of equality legislation being devolved to the Parliament.

The Government will publish its mainstreaming equality and human rights strategy later this year, and its evidence-based framework sets out six drivers of change that we expect public authorities to use to direct their equality and human rights mainstreaming. Regulatory change is one such driver. The PSED and the Scotland-specific duties are important contributors to the change that the Government wants, but I recognise that there is some frustration among stakeholders about their effectiveness and impact. I recognise, too, that public authorities in Scotland are already doing good work to advance equality, but we have a collective responsibility to make our actions more effective.

I will set out my priorities in the areas where we are making good progress. I recognise the role of visible leadership from Government in order to drive change, so I have prioritised providing personal leadership on the PSED, both with my ministerial colleagues and in a series of meetings with public authorities. Those meetings have included the Scottish councils equality network, the non-departmental public bodies equality forum and more than 100 duty bearers whom I have met to communicate my expectations and ambition in setting equality outcomes. In all those meetings, I am raising the profile of the public sector equality duty, pushing for better equality impact assessments and stressing our collective responsibility to improve our equality framework.

However, we recognise that there remain systemic and structural barriers to equality mainstreaming, and the Government will publish its equality outcomes for 2025 to 2029 next month. They will deliberately focus on more effective impact assessment, better use of equality data and evidence, and application of lived experience as drivers of system change, as all those things are critical to generating lasting impact.

It is clear that there remains more work to do to build the competence of public authorities to effectively apply the public sector equality duty. We have commissioned the development of new inclusive communications tools and training, which will be delivered later in the year for the Scottish Government and other public authorities. That responds directly to calls from public bodies for more practical support and guidance that is informed by lived experience. To support the mainstreaming strategy, a toolkit of practical advice and support is being developed collaboratively with stakeholders. We have also been working closely with the Equality and Human Rights Commission on a range of projects, including learning sessions during our recent development academy week and a series of round-table meetings on outcome setting.

Looking ahead, we will set out by December this year how we plan to continue to improve the operation of the public sector equality duty in Scotland under regulation 12 of the Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations 2011, which relate to Scotland-specific duties, and I will consider the findings of your inquiry carefully when preparing that report. I look forward to a productive discussion on how we can make our equality regulations more effective and collectively create the society that we all wish to see.

I do not know for a fact that they are not. I cannot sit here and say that about every single hospital or local board. I do not think that it would be reasonable to expect me to have that information here and now. However, I will refer you to my earlier comments. If we start with dignity and fairness, and if we ensure that the measures that we take are proportionate, we can accommodate. Nobody, from any community at all, should be forced into an undignified position. I am very clear on that, and always have been, wherever it might happen on the public estate.

I will have that conversation with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

I understand that there might be differing perspectives between PSED duty bearers and equality organisations on the challenges of ensuring that the duty is as effective as possible. It is the responsibility of public authorities to properly comply with the duty, as well as with the relevant codes of practice and the other guidance that is published by the EHRC. I want to see more consistency in the compliance, and the expectation is that the PSED duty bearers should be embedding equality and human rights in their existing work. My responsibility is to ensure that we have strong scaffolding for that approach and to push for the cultural change that is needed to ensure that it is embedded.

I recognise that we all have that shared ambition, and it is important to remember that we are all trying to achieve the same thing and ensure that we get the right balance between the Government being supportive and ensuring that public authorities live up to their responsibilities in order to improve.

I confirm that, as I said in my opening statement, the work of the committee is incredibly valuable. You have taken a range of views, so taking on board your recommendations would be the responsible thing to do.

I agree that there is a need to be clearer and to have a more integrated approach to embedding equality into the work of all public bodies. I am not going to sit here and say that everything is hunky-dory. There are people in our communities who still face inequalities, and it is incumbent on us all to recognise that.

I stress that we are aware of the issue and that we are working on it very actively. I assure the committee, and I hope that I can demonstrate to it, that we are using all the levers that we can, which are probably more limited than we would like them to be; however, that is the nature of what we are working within.

Taking that integrated approach to embedding equality is important, and it applies to the PSED more broadly as well. That is why we will publish our equality and human rights mainstreaming strategy later this year.

On the issue of pay gap reporting in particular, in our consultation, most respondents were supportive about expanding reporting, but we need to do that in a way that makes a real difference. As I said, I accept that there is a disparity in perception around this. I am not minded to get public authorities and public bodies to gather data just for the sake of it. Data is very important, but we must triangulate the qualitative and the quantitative as well as lived experience and direct stakeholder engagement. That is the best way to make it robust.

Part of that is about recognising that you must take people with you. I understand and accept that some people will say that they have been doing such work for a while and that it is not going fast enough. However, we all recognise that it is a complex area. There are examples of public organisations that are already extending their reporting, voluntarily, to include disability and ethnicity data—the Scottish Government, for instance, does that voluntarily. We can learn from existing practice.

I will give you a general overview. There are technical reasons for that perceived change, which I will bring in my officials to explain.

We know that inclusive communication is fundamentally important to people’s use of public services, and that many people have diverse communication needs. That is why we are investing in the new guidance and tools to strengthen the public sector’s approach. My decision to pursue a non-regulatory route was informed by careful consideration of what I thought would make the biggest impact. That was the rationale behind my decision.

We identified that a new regulation might not drive the change that we wanted to see in the way that providing practical tools and support would do. That is always the number 1 ask whenever we make a demand on public authorities—they ask what support we will give them to enable them to do what we want them to do. It was a priority for us to make sure that they would get the support that they needed.

I am pleased to be able to share with the committee that Communication Inclusion People and Disability Equality Scotland are the leads on that work, and I welcome their partnership approach. When I met the project leads last week, I emphasised my support for the work that they are doing.

Our contractors intend to co-produce that work with people with diverse communication needs, including people who have lived and direct experience of communication exclusion, people with various disabilities and people with neurodivergence. I am excited about that work, and I hope that I will have the opportunity to update the committee as it develops. I am confident that the approach that we are taking will significantly change the ability of organisations to meet the needs of people with communication differences.

I will bring in Nick Bland to explain why the change was made with regard to the limits.

We are doing a double-hander today—I note that representatives from the EHRC were at the evidence session prior to this one.

The EHRC plays a crucial role in supporting and ensuring the implementation of the PSED in Scotland. However, I want to make it absolutely clear that the EHRC is—rightly—independent. As a reserved public body, its powers cannot be changed by the Scottish Parliament, nor can it be directed by Scottish ministers. It is not funded by the Scottish Government and we have no say in who it appoints to official positions.

Having said that, I also want to be clear that the relationship between the Scottish Government and the EHRC is built on our shared commitment to advancing equality, human rights and social justice across Scotland. We have a good working relationship at the ministerial level and at the official level.