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I thank the committee for having us today.

Although it has been unlawful for 20 years, we know that mammals continue to be chased and killed by packs of dogs in Scotland, whether inadvertently when people undertake management or deliberately when people participate in illegal activities such as hare coursing. My intention is to ensure that what has been unlawful for 20 years cannot persist and to deliver legislation that clearly sets out the purposes for which dogs can be used and the conditions that must be adhered to when they are used.

In his review, Lord Bonomy noted that the existing legislation lacks clarity and is unduly complicated and that that has resulted in difficulties in bringing prosecutions under the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002. I was pleased to hear his comments to the committee that he considers the bill to be

“a very well-crafted piece of legislation”

and that it

“should be a great incentive for better enforcement of the law”.—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 41.]

As well as clarifying the legal position, the bill introduces a two-dog limit for searching for, stalking and flushing wild mammals. That is an important additional safeguard to reduce the risk of foxes and other wild mammals being chased and killed by packs of dogs. It will significantly reduce the risk that, if dogs are not under control, whether inadvertently or deliberately, it will lead, as it has done, to their chasing and killing mammals.

The vast majority of foxes in Scotland are controlled without the use of dogs. The bill allows for the use without licences of two dogs to protect livestock. However, I recognise, as Lord Bonomy did, that there are circumstances in which two dogs will not be sufficient to undertake the lawful activity of flushing a mammal to waiting guns. That can be because of terrain in thick forest or on hill ground, for example. Because of that, the bill includes provision for more than two dogs to be used via a licensing scheme if it can be demonstrated that there is no other solution.

I will be clear on two points. First, applying for a licence should be the exception. NatureScot, as the licensing authority, would need to scrutinise applications. Secondly, where a licence is merited for use, we are determined that it will be workable, reasonable and available.

We will get into more detail on it in the discussion, but the other main policy provision in the bill is the banning of trail hunting. The reasons for that are twofold. First, trail hunting poses a significant risk to wild mammals. Dogs can be diverted from a laid trail on to a natural trail and start chasing and killing wild mammals. Secondly, we know from evidence down south that trail hunting is used as a cover for unlawful hunting. Therefore, we want to take the opportunity not just to close historical loopholes but to rise to the opportunity of preventing others from opening.

I have been following the committee sessions, and I am aware of some of the discussions that have arisen with regard to the bill. It is very helpful for me to hear those discussions, and I am glad to have the opportunity to hear more of them today.

I understand that the control of wild mammals is a controversial issue, and I know that the committee has heard strong views on either side of the debate. The bill is principally about pursuing the highest possible animal welfare standards in Scotland, but on the understanding that we are a rural nation and access to legitimate control must be possible.

I will leave it there, convener. Thank you.

There are two points in that. The first is about our clarifying the application of the bill to the various types of shooting activity that people might undertake. It will apply not to game but to wild mammals. Perhaps we need clarity on that. That is what this process is all about.

The second point was about rabbits. I have to be clear that one of our policy decisions is that rabbits should be afforded the same protection as hares. The reason for including rabbits in the bill is twofold. First, we accept that there are significant welfare issues when dogs chase and kill hares. We see no reason why that ought not also apply to rabbits, so we want to bring those within the definition of “wild mammal”.

Secondly, we know that, when people are caught hare coursing, they often say that they were shooting rabbits. We do not want to create that opportunity. On the point that Rachael Hamilton made, permission to be on land might eliminate the opportunity for people to say that they were shooting rabbits when, in fact, they were undertaking hare coursing, but it does not touch on our welfare concerns about rabbits being chased and ripped apart.

That is why rabbits have been included in the bill, and why I do not think that permission is enough to negate the need to bring rabbits within its scope.

I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean. I am pursuing all the reasons for which a dog may be used. I come to the issue from the basis that we cannot allow an animal in any of those circumstances to be chased and killed. That is where the animal welfare concern is. As long as we seek to avoid that, whether the dogs are used to kill a fox, protect lambs or help to eradicate a non-native species, the welfare element lies in not allowing the chasing and the killing.

I do not have it in front of me.

Yes, and I take on board what the Law Society of Scotland says. However, that is a pretty standard provision throughout not only wildlife legislation but legislation generally and would allow us to make amendments should that be needed without having to go through primary legislation again. Cost recovery is an example of where we might want to make such changes. Indeed, if any deficiencies arose, that provision would allow us to make changes without having to introduce another bill, in contrast to the 2002 act. It is not an overstretch; it is a standard part of drafting.

Twenty per cent is the figure that I recall, convener, but I will certainly check it.

That links to the discussion that I understand the committee has had about a situation in which someone is walking their dog in the countryside. Exactly as Hugh described, hunting is an intentional act. If someone is walking their dog, and it chases a rabbit, hare or fox and kills it, the person has not committed a crime under the legislation, because they were not undertaking intentional hunting. That is not to say that if they repeatedly actively allowed their dog to do that, it could not eventually constitute something more, but if someone is walking their dog and it breaks free and chases and kills a mammal, that is not a crime under the bill.

I understand the point. I do not want people to get to the stage of being able to demonstrate that damage has been done. We do not want dead lambs to be used as evidence that a licence was needed. Drawing on the expertise of farmers and land managers, the Scottish Government and NatureScot understand that it is not necessary to wait until lambs have come into contact with a fox in order to justify control of the fox.

I understand your point, but I do not consider them to be loopholes. The basis of the bill is that the chasing and the killing are unlawful, not the flushing of an animal to a waiting gun. The provisions will make sure that that unlawful activity—the chasing and killing and, in essence, the suffering that is caused—will not be able to take place. The provisions will do that while being cognisant of life in rural Scotland.

I agree. I was about to say that I do not think that that question pertained to the purpose of the bill. I can say that the Government must consider climate change and bake that into all the legislation that we develop, but food policy and the management and welfare of wildlife are two separate issues.