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That estimate does not involve cost recovery, presently, but it could do so, if that was sought.

NatureScot already has a relationship with land managers and will seek to foster it to make this work however we need it to. As I have said, although I do not think it is appropriate to put such a provision in the bill, I do not see why it should not be considered as the licensing scheme is developed.

I have been thinking about that issue ever since I heard it being discussed. I understand that the reasoning behind it is to ensure that the shot happens as soon as possible and to avoid cruel and unlawful chasing and killing. It would be difficult to include something like that in the bill, because dogs are used in various circumstances, but it could be considered as the terms of the licensing scheme are developed.

The limit is based on, first, the fact that it will substantially reduce the ability to chase and kill and, secondly, an assessment of what is possible with two dogs versus what people are seeking to use them for.

As I said in my opening remarks, Lord Bonomy recognised that there would be circumstances in which two dogs would not be sufficient. He pointed directly to terrain such as thick forest or hill ground. That is why a two-dog limit, bearing in mind that it helps to keep dogs under control and that England and Wales have successfully introduced such a limit, is a reasonable baseline, to be supplemented with a licensing scheme where necessary. Lord Bonomy has commented that the two together form a workable approach that he could support.

They are so vast that it is difficult to say. The protection of a lamb may be required in different circumstances—for example, some farmers lamb indoors and some lamb on the hill. Those are different circumstances. It is virtually impossible for me to say how that compares with invasive non-native species on an island.

They are pursued for different reasons, so I cannot—

I thank Jim Fairlie for that question. That is probably one of the most vexed issues, because we are presented with something that is between a rock and a hard place. Jim Fairlie defined that pretty well in drawing on his own experience.

From what I can gauge from the committee’s evidence sessions and from my discussions with stakeholders, some people view the practice as a necessary part of control and management, as Jim Fairlie characterised it. I do not think that there are any obvious alternatives that would be any more palatable.

On the other hand, we have very real concerns, which Jim Fairlie expressed, about the animal welfare implications of putting dogs under ground—implications for not only the wild mammal that the dogs are pursuing, but the terriers themselves.

I have the quote here. Mike Flynn from the SSPCA said:

“I have grave concerns about dogs underground. I see no reason why you would have to put more than one dog down there ... if you get two terriers in a heightened state, they will bite each other—it is not just the fox that they will go for. I have grave concerns about using animals underground, because there is no way to control them.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 29.]

That is really concerning.

The one-dog limit that we have proposed aims to strike a balance, but I am open-minded about where we go with that and how people think the matter should be dealt with.

I have mentioned it a couple of times now but, just for clarity, I point out that the principal reason for the licensing scheme being tagged on to two of the exceptions is that we recognise, as Lord Bonomy did, that in certain circumstances the use of two dogs will not enable that lawful activity of flushing to waiting guns. Indeed, he specifically said that terrain—for example, hill ground or thick forests—was one of the reasons that it might not be workable.

In recognition of that, we have introduced the licensing scheme as an exception to an exception. We talk a lot about balance; I want all of us to get to a point at which we have a licensing scheme that is workable and available to those who have no other option. If, say, a farmer needs a licence during a busy lambing period, they should not be unduly burdened by that. At the same time, however, we cannot allow the system to become so weak that we are right back to where we were in 2002, with licences just being applied for readily without anybody knowing why—or, indeed, knowing what is actually happening in the countryside. That is what we need to avoid.

The timings reflect the Scottish Government’s understanding of practice. For example, a farmer might see evidence that there are foxes around. They might be able to undertake control measures with two dogs, but if they cannot, and if there are no other options, they will be able to apply for a 14-day licence to deal with the issue. As we understand it, that is the timescale in which it should be possible to do that. In the longer-term projects that we have observed—including the stoats on Orkney, which are being namechecked a lot today—more time is required. That said, the two-year period is a maximum, not a general rule.

Police Scotland made an important point. It had not been raised with me previously but, now that it has been, I will consider how we can accommodate the training of police dogs.

That is an absolutely fair point. Just as we work with NatureScot on the financial implications, we will work with Police Scotland. The Scottish SPCA plays an important role in helping Police Scotland to manage some resource issues, including the rehoming of animals. We are due to undertake some work to review the powers of the Scottish SPCA that pertain to wildlife crime, which might play into some of that.