Seòmar agus comataidhean

Yes. The Government considers carefully and scrutinises closely every law that it passes. The exceptions in the bill reflect what is required in rural Scotland as we understand it and as stakeholders tell us. The reasons why dogs are used are mixed. RSPB Scotland has welcomed the fact that there is an exception for environmental use because we must understand that, although we want to pursue the highest possible animal welfare standards for our wildlife, there are circumstances in which humans have to control wildlife.

For the purposes of today’s discussion about stage 1 of the bill, my answer is similar to my response to Jim Fairlie: all those issues are already being, and will continue to be, considered as the terms of the licence are developed. I am content at this stage that what is in the bill allows us to develop a licensing scheme that will be rigorous and which will cover what is needed. It is a framework at this point, and we will build on that through consultation and stakeholder engagement.

I know from speaking to stakeholders that one of the things that is most important to me is important to them, too—that is, that the licensing scheme is available where no other option exists. I think that that is pretty robust.

There is a provision in the bill to allow us to make supplementary changes, and if that section and the bill were passed, we could do it through that, so it would depend on whether that happens. I hope that my legal colleagues are not cringing at me making that assumption, but I think that that would be the provision through which it could be done.

I will go back to something that I tried to convey in my opening remarks about closing the loopholes of the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 and how, equally, the bill is about taking the opportunity to ensure that more do not open. The issue of trail hunting falls squarely into that category.

We have decided to ban trail hunting for two reasons. First, we think that there is an animal welfare risk in that an animal that is trained to follow an animal-based scent can easily pick up the scent of an animal elsewhere and begin the chase and kill, which is exactly what we are trying to stop.

Secondly, we are trying to ban it because we have evidence from down south that trail hunting is being used as a cover for the continuance of illegal hunting, so we want to prevent that from beginning in Scotland. It is not a well-established practice, so that part of the bill ought not to be controversial or difficult. It is about ensuring that we do not allow more loopholes to open.

Exactly.

I am. That is another good question. During my discussion with Rachael Hamilton, I explained the reasons why we have included the welfare of rabbits, one of which is to bring them into line with welfare concerns about hares. The second reason is that people use rabbits as a cover for hare coursing, which we want to avoid. Of course, the bill will not prevent the control of rabbits and it will not stop the use of two dogs to help to flush rabbits from cover to waiting guns.

I am comfortable that there will still be scope for control under the bill, but it will be done more humanely, and the bill will protect other wild animals in the countryside and allow us to have clarity about when hare coursing is undertaken.

Pheasants are not covered by the bill.

Okay. I take your point. As I said, I have been watching quite closely what other people have said. I have seen a lot of support for the inclusion of rabbits within the definition of wild mammal. For the record, I know that Detective Sergeant Telford said:

“Police Scotland welcomes the inclusion of rabbits”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 22 June 2022; c 6.];

Chief Superintendent Mike Flynn said that the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

“welcomes the inclusion of rabbits”;

and Lord Bonomy said:

“On the definition of a wild mammal, my only comment is that it makes sense to protect rabbits for the reason that is given. To me, that is common sense.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 13, 42.]

I have tried to say as clearly as possible that I am very keen not to rush the licensing scheme. I want it to be developed in consultation with stakeholders, including with those who will have to use it.

In due course, we will update Parliament on the timescale for all aspects of the bill to come into force. Hugh Dignon might want to say something about whether there is a formal point at which we might start developing the terms of the licensing scheme. We are already talking to stakeholders about that.

I can do so. I might need to cancel whatever is next, but I will check.