Seòmar agus comataidhean

First, I highlight that the bill is not just about foxes. We have to remember that the aims that we are pursuing are about all wild mammals and not just foxes.

A number of ways to control foxes are used in Scotland. We know that lamping is used, along with the use of dogs to flush to guns or—unlawfully—to chase and kill foxes. We know that some farmers and land managers adopt the use of traps, snares and things like that.

However, the bill is not about making an assessment of the different ways in which Scotland manages foxes. It is about saying that the attempt that was made 20 years ago to not allow chasing and killing as a form of control has not worked, and that we really ought to revise the legislation so that that one specific part works as it was intended to. There will be debates about all the different types of control, but that is not what the bill looks at. It is very much about how one aspect of the 20-year-old legislation is working, and whether it is working as the public thought that it should.

If someone is pursuing an activity and the dogs that they are using flush a rabbit, the bill will apply because it is a wild mammal. The bill is about protection of wild mammals in Scotland. I ask Hugh Dignon to come in.

I am trying to remind myself of the definition. We refer to it as

“searching for, stalking or flushing”.

That is relevant to one of the examples that I mentioned to Karen Adam. If we tried to provide an exhaustive definition of hunting, we would eventually find ourselves in a circumstance in which someone could say, “I wasn’t undertaking any of those activities; I was doing something else”. They would find themselves outside the scope of the offence.

With regard to expanding a non-exhaustive list of what could constitute hunting, I do not disagree. That could be helpful.

That would be good.

I believe in appeal processes, and there is an internal review and appeal process in NatureScot. I asked the same question as you have, and it was explained to me that that is NatureScot’s structure for dealing with that, so it does have one. I am supportive of review and appeal processes and keen to see that they are in place and available.

We are undertaking engagement with stakeholders throughout the development of the bill, and we are listening closely to the evidence that the committee takes. All of that will feed into NatureScot’s development of the licensing scheme. Hugh Dignon said that we would be happy to keep the Parliament up to date as that develops, but the scheme will be finalised after the bill is passed, as has been the case with other pieces of legislation, most recently the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Act 2020, in which we brought hares within protected status. We designed and finalised the licensing scheme for them after the passage of the bill.

I want to accommodate what I can. What time do you think we might finish?

There is a multitude of ways in which we could do that. I am open-minded to ways that allow us to strike the balance that I highlighted to Jenni Minto between achieving what we want to achieve—that is, the highest possible animal welfare standards and no chasing and killing of wild mammals in the countryside—and facilitating people for whom two dogs are not enough and no other methods are available.

As I recall, we have discussed the possibility of people not necessarily being required to resubmit evidence for a licence application every time, but, frankly, everything has yet to be worked out. The weather is an example of a practical reality that I would want to be reflected.

Sorry, convener—I did not realise that Hugh Dignon was trying to come in there.

We have to bother to distinguish because we are trying to make something work that has not worked up to now. It is incumbent on us to be specific about the circumstances in which it will be permissible to use an exception under a rule. We are trying to achieve clarity and specificity in the bill.

I am not saying that the protection of livestock is not an environmental issue, but there is a practical distinction between someone who requires assistance with the protection of livestock and a long-term project for the eradication of an invasive non-native species on an island. The welfare issues are not different, but they are different activities.

In case I have not expressed that clearly enough, I will hand over to my colleague Hugh Dignon to see whether he can add anything.