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Two dogs per activity is the rule. If the activity is stalking, flushing or searching, however many people are working with the individual who has two dogs, the whole group is regarded as having the two-dog limit.

The crux of your point goes back to an exemption that would take rough shooting outwith the scope of the bill. It would be extremely difficult to define rough shooting, but that is a minor point compared with the much bigger points that we have already rehearsed—namely, that a glaring loophole would be created in the bill where the two-dog limit would then apply to everybody else, including farmers trying to protect their lambs from predation, but not to people—

I have certainly heard a great deal of evidence about the behaviour of gun dogs, their control and how well trained they are, which gives me confidence that they will be able to comply with the requirement not to do that. On whether I can envisage a scenario in which it could happen, of course it could happen. Mike Flynn, who has decades of experience with the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, has given evidence to the committee that it can happen.

My colleague Hugh Dignon wants to come in on that, and then I will come back to you.

I heard Mike Flynn make that point last week. It is a reasonable point among many points about why we should not create an exemption here. As Hugh Dignon said, we would risk creating a glaring loophole in the bill. Mike Flynn’s point was about consistency and the fact that it would be imbalanced and disproportionate to put greater restrictions on those who are seeking to protect their livestock from predation than on those who pursue sports. That is not me making a comment about people pursuing sports and their reason for doing so; it about me saying that I want a bill that applies consistently across the piece, and that is the only way to do it properly.

The other point to make is that we are talking about the risk of creating a loophole and I believe that, if the shooting industry and the folks who you had at your round-table meeting were taken outwith the scope of the bill, they would not want to find themselves being part of a cover for illegal hunting in future when the bill has been passed. They are law-abiding people who are undertaking an activity in the countryside, and I am asking them to make minimal adaptations in order to comply with the bill. That will mean that, in the aftermath of the bill passing, they will not find themselves besmirched by any attempts to circumvent the law.

That is absolutely right—control is a fundamental part of the bill. I know that we are here to talk about rough shooting, but the bill as a whole is supposed to be about control being important and its being readily obvious when control had been lost. The two-dog limit allows that to be much more easily picked up.

Yes. It is part of the concern. My job is first to regulate the way in which dogs are used in hunting in the countryside, but it is certainly a consideration that consistency with that is important to avoid future loopholes. I have tried to say that from the beginning. This work is about closing the loopholes in the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 and making sure that more do not open up, so that we can finally end unlawful hunting in Scotland. Equally, the shooting industry clearly has an interest in not getting into a situation in which its perfectly legal activity is found to be the guise under which unlawful hunting is pursued.

There could be one beater with two dogs.

Yes—absolutely. I have tried to do that from the start. From the inception of the bill, I have been very clear that it is about closing the loopholes of the past and preventing others from opening them. It is about ensuring that what has been unlawful for 20 years no longer continues, while farmers, environmentalists and conservationists still access and use dogs in the countryside. That has been part of the messaging from the Government from the beginning.

I am committed to that on-going dialogue and explanation of what is expected, not least on what people can expect in the case of vexatious complaints. I have said that I would be happy to work with the industry to provide guidance and messaging about what people should expect and when to expect it. However, I think it was you, Jim, who said in response to the points that Scottish Land & Estates made that, as regards the criminal law, it is ultimately not about what the public perceive or about their view; the criminal law is ultimately for law enforcement, which is very well adapted to making such judgments and observing actions in the countryside.

Are you asking whether I know of any circumstances in which that has happened or whether I can envisage it happening?