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I do not have that information in front of me.

I will take that under advisement.

Just a second, convener. My apologies.

Yes.

No, we do not have that data at the moment, but we have spoken about that at length. It is about how we extract the data, because those people then become fare-paying passengers. Are they the fare-paying passengers that Gary McIntyre just said have increased in number? Are those fare-paying passengers young people who are continuing to use the bus after their pass has finished, or are people choosing to go on the bus? We need to understand that. It is difficult data to gather, but we are actively looking at that at the moment.

Good morning, convener, and thank you for having me to discuss the draft National Bus Travel Concession Schemes (Miscellaneous Amendment) (Scotland) Order 2025. The order gives effect to an agreement that has been reached with the Confederation of Passenger Transport, representing Scottish bus operators. It sets out the reimbursement rate and capped level of funding for the national bus travel concession scheme for older and disabled persons and the reimbursement rates for the national bus travel concession scheme for young persons in 2025-26.

The order will enable the reimbursement of bus operators for journeys that are made under both schemes after the expiry of the current reimbursement provisions on 31 March 2025. The order specifies the new reimbursement rates for both schemes as well as the capped level of funding for the older and disabled persons scheme for the next financial year, to 31 March 2026.

To reflect developments in the wider bus operating market, an updated reimbursement model has been agreed and developed with the industry for both schemes. The model uses the latest available data and evidence on industry costs, passenger demand and travel behaviours, and it will be used as the model for future years.

The proposed reimbursement rates for the young persons scheme for 2025-26 are as follows. For five to 15-year-olds, the rate will be 47.9 per cent of the adult single fare, which is an increase of 4.3 percentage points from the current rate of 43.6 per cent. For 16 to 21-year-olds, the rate will be 72.4 per cent, which is a decrease of 8.8 percentage points from the current rate of 81.2 per cent. The new rates reflect three years’ worth of data collection and evaluation of the YPS. The rates provide a more accurate level of reimbursement to operators and replace the rates that have been in place since January 2022. However, journey numbers and patterns are still not stabilised enough to determine an accurate budget cap for the young persons scheme for 2025-26.

The proposed reimbursement rate for the older and disabled persons scheme in 2025-26 has been amended from 55 per cent of the adult single fare to 52.9 per cent, and the capped level of funding will be set at £215 million, which is an increase of £11.6 million from this year.

Free bus travel enables people to access local services and gain from the health benefits of a more active lifestyle. It also helps to strengthen our response to the climate emergency, support a green recovery and embed sustainable travel habits in young people. The order provides for those benefits to continue for a further year on a basis that is fair to our operators and affordable to taxpayers.

I commend the order to the committee and am happy to answer any questions.

What you have just outlined is not part of the thinking for the model that we are considering. We have committed to looking at a price cap pilot scheme that would cap fares at £2, but there are a number of considerations to take into account, including where the pilot will take place, what we will do with it, what we want to achieve through it and what the long-term objective would be. A number of areas would need to be explored for us to be sure that that was the right rate.

You are talking about moving budgets and how those budgets will be used. I note that the committee has raised that issue before—I think that Mr Matheson raised it with the cabinet secretary in the previous budget session.

We are aware that a number of conversations are being had about whether the schemes represent the best use of public funds at the moment. There will always be potential for us to develop ideas and look at different ways of doing things but, at the moment, the concessionary scheme is as it is. It is working. It is clearly hitting the objectives that the Government is trying to achieve and it is working for passengers and operators.

In addition, we are now thinking about other ways to get more people to use the bus. As I have said before, I am clearly committed to trying to increase bus patronage, but there are a number of factors for us to consider.

We are not trying to favour anybody over anybody else; we are trying to get people to use the buses more frequently and more often, and we are trying to change the patterns of behaviour. I do not think that anyone on this committee, across the Parliament or, indeed, in the country thinks that the scheme is not working. It is getting people to use the bus and getting young people into the habit of using the bus.

We do not have sufficient data to be able to set a cap at this stage. We have clear evidence that the scheme is working by getting people to use the bus. The scheme is clearly welcomed by the bus operators and it is helping us to achieve our objectives. All in all, I think that the scheme is working remarkably well.

There is a degree of ferry passenger subsidy—I use the word “subsidy”, although it is a word that I hate. If we put more into the ferries, we will be taking it out of bus travel. At the moment, we have a reasonable balance. We would like to do more as we go forward. I am actively looking at all the areas of all the systems that we have. How do we improve them? How do we make them better? How do we get more people to actively engage in bus usage?

Your question is fair, and I take your point on board. There are areas that I am actively looking at across my portfolio, and I will continue to update the committee as and when we make any changes.

I am quite happy to leave it there.

Motion agreed to,

That the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee recommends that the National Bus Travel Concession Schemes (Miscellaneous Amendment) (Scotland) Order 2025 be approved.