Seòmar agus comataidhean

We want to do this in the best way possible. A farmer will know that lambs are being killed and carried because that fox is feeding a den. Then we are into a whole different ball game of what we call ethical pest control or ethical wild animal control, because we would be taking a fox out while it is feeding cubs.

Surely, we can accept the fact that foxes will kill lambs; we know that they do it. I have had 30 years in sheep farming, and I can assure you that, every year, foxes will kill lambs. We cannot decide which fox in the countryside is coming in to kill lambs, so surely the principle has to be a general understanding that foxes will be a problem for farmers during lambing and that controlling their numbers during the winter would be far more sensible than waiting until the lambs are being killed.

Having spent 30 years in sheep farming, I dispute that.

I have a question about predator control, and I am looking for clarification from Kirsty Jenkins, Robbie Marsland and, potentially, Pete Goddard on a couple of points. Mike Flynn has already answered my question.

I will use the word “pest”, because if you are an arable farmer and you are getting 10 acres of arable barley eaten by rabbits, rabbits are a pest to you. Do you agree that the ability to farm in this country requires a degree of ethical control of wild animals? I do not need a huge explanation, just an answer. Do you agree with the principle that we should be able to control them?

Yes, but practically, how do you determine whether that fox is going to cause you problems? How do you do that?

So, what would that evidence be?

I will ask a question of Robbie Marsland directly, if that is okay. First, I want to put on record that I am glad that everybody in the room accepts that there is a need for land managers to be able to have a method of controlling wildlife. It is great that we have consensus on that.

I also put on record that I would in no way advocate that it is a good idea to allow packs of dogs to go chasing across the country to catch a fox and kill it. I am absolutely opposed to that—

The requirement in the EU was 200 consignments, but the SI is reducing it to 40 on the basis of the number of products that are coming in.

My question is this. Robbie Marsland mentioned that Lord Bonomy gave an estimate of 20 per cent of foxes being killed by the pack. Last week, we had before the committee Ian Duncan Millar, from the highland Perthshire foot hound pack. These guys are not going out hunting; they are trying to control a predator that is damaging to all sorts of wildlife and farm animals. Ian Duncan Millar estimates that up to 95 per cent of the foxes are driven out and shot. A concern that I have always had is that, if you are driving to standing guns, there are not enough guns. The most important thing, when a fox gets driven out, is that there are enough guns outside.

Surely the loophole in the law is that not enough care has been taken about how a fox is dispatched once it has been driven from cover. Surely having enough guns is far more effective than trying to use two dogs. Again, I know from experience that two dogs in a very wide area will not necessarily flush the fox. They will go round in circles, because the fox—which I have huge respect for—is a very clever animal. The point is to get the fox out of cover in order to shoot it, so the number of guns would surely be more important than the number of dogs.

I would like to offer a brief clarification on the point that Ariane Burgess made about a shepherd monitoring a field after losing a lamb. As a former shepherd-farmer, I can say that we would call that passing trade. If you get one lamb lifted, you can live with that; two, and it starts to become a problem; three, and there is an issue.

On alternative forms of control, I keep coming back to the pre-emptive strike of catching the problem before it occurs. There is lamping, snaring, den poisoning and the use of terriers and other dogs. Do you agree that every tool in the box should be available to ensure that there is the most welfare-efficient management of problem animals?

Thank you. We are short of time, but I am glad that we agree on that point.