Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning. A point was raised about hunting and flushing last week, I think, although I cannot remember, because the weeks are running into one another. One of the issues that was raised was the potential situation in which people are shooting pheasants and game birds, and their dogs flush a rabbit out, which is perceived to be a criminal offence. However, if a dog flushes a rabbit but does not chase that rabbit and kill it, is that an offence or is it not? We need to get clarity on what the offence is.

My specific concern was about a situation in which people are shooting game birds and their dogs flush out animals other than game birds. Last week, we heard concern from one of the witnesses about whether that would constitute an offence, but we are now saying that that would not constitute an offence.

I fully understand your difficulty in trying to walk that fine line.

My other question is about other conditions that you might apply—again, I have raised this issue at a number of meetings. Is the number of guns on the other side as important as the number of dogs that are flushing? Hugh, I might have made this point to you when you were last at committee. If you have only two guns covering 150 yards of forestry, a fox will run straight through the middle and not get chased. If you have 15, the fox will not run anywhere and will get shot. Is the number of guns as important in the licensing scheme as the number of dogs?

Okay. I will come back to my other point later.

Regarding the Scottish Government’s reasons for a one-dog limit below ground, there is an argument that any dog below ground is a welfare risk, but there is also an argument that there are circumstances in which two dogs are needed. I know from my own experience that anyone who puts two dogs down the same hole should not have terriers in the first place.

However, we have been told in evidence that there are circumstances in which using two dogs below ground is far better from a welfare point of view. Did you consider the National Working Terrier Federation’s code of conduct in coming to the conclusion that one dog below ground should be the maximum?

It is clear that a balance will need to be struck across the entire bill. I understand that that is what you are trying to do.

I will leave it there, because I know that we are short of time.

It is that two-week period that I am concerned about. As a practical land manager, I think that the period should be outwith nesting season and when we know that foxes are not going to ground to cub. There is plenty of scope for having a season during which hounds can be on the ground and able to flush those areas where you know that you will not be able to get out with a lamp. Will the bill consider that specific situation?

If you do not mind, Mr Dignon, I want to come back to you on your previous point, as it ties in with my next question.

I am just thinking about the type of licence or about having a seasonal licence—[Interruption.] I am sorry—I know that you cannot follow what is going on in my head. I was thinking back to what the minister said earlier about dogs going to ground. Nobody wants dogs to go to ground, but if the licence is left until, say, lambing time, foxes will already be in the ground and you will have more dogs going underground instead of flushing.

In several evidence sessions now, I have made the point about the licence pre-empting cubbing time to stop more terriers going underground. Are you prepared to consider that? I am sorry—that should have been addressed to you, minister. I am concerned about getting the timing for applying for a licence wrong and about its being too prescriptive.

No—but if, in the process of dogs flushing game birds, a rabbit or fox comes out and the dog does not chase that rabbit or fox in order to kill it, is it correct that no offence is being committed?

Does NatureScot have the local understanding to build up that relationship? The committee has also discussed the need for a working relationship between NatureScot and land managers. Could that sort of thing be built into that relationship?