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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 July 2025
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Displaying 2160 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Jim Fairlie

I have been thinking for some time about the issue of the number of guns used during a hunt, and I have voiced my concern on that.

From everything that we have heard in the committee, when it comes to actually killing a wild animal in a swift and humane way, the number of guns seems to be a vital part of the process. When I asked Lord Bonomy about that during stage 1 evidence sessions, he responded—as Rachael Hamilton has just cited—by saying:

“I think that the number of guns is vital”.—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 47.]

One of the examples that I gave during the evidence sessions was of a person who has only two guns covering 150 yards of forestry. The fox would run straight through the middle and would not be shot. However, if the number of guns was increased to, for example, 15, it would be more likely that the fox would be shot, so the loophole of allowing dogs to hunt and kill a fox would be closed.

12:00  

My amendments 171 and 191 would amend sections 4 and 8, on licence provisions, to give specific examples of the kind of information that NatureScot can ask people to provide on their applications. That would be information on the number of dogs for which people are seeking permission and the number of guns that they intend to deploy. Amendments 157, 160, 172 and 173 carry on from that by amending both licensing sections so that NatureScot would have to require a minimum number of guns to be deployed when issuing a licence and put that number on the licence. That would mean that NatureScot would look at the information provided by the applicant and would make the decision on exactly what the minimum number of guns should be.

The principle of those amendments has been widely supported by a variety of stakeholders and committee members at stage 1. Stating in the bill what information may be required will give early notice to applicants of the type of information that will be required. The amendments could also assist in filling out some of the detail of the licensing framework—in particular, the type of information that applicants may require to include in their applications.

I know that Rachael Hamilton agrees with the principle, as she has lodged amendment 21, which is very similar to mine. It would amend section 4(2)(c) to include information that the relevant authority may require. My issue with Rachael Hamilton’s amendment, and the reason why I have lodged an alternative version, is that amendment 21 talks about

“the number of dogs or guns that would be ... licensed”.

I do not think that the wording is right in that the applicant would not know how many dogs or guns would be licensed, because that is a matter for the licensing authority to decide.

My amendment makes it clear that the applicant provides the information and then the licensing authority considers that information and reaches its decision. That might be to grant a licence for the number of dogs and guns that the applicant has stated on the form, or it might be to grant a licence for a different number. My amendment keeps the flexibility for the licensing authority to do just that.

I have also included the same requirement for section 8 licences, for environmental benefit, as for section 4 licences, on wildlife management, so that the requirements are consistent. It is absolutely right that the licensing authority has the final decision-making power for those licences, as it does for all other wildlife management licences.

It is important that we are clear about what we will expect under the licensing regime, which is why I have lodged the amendments. I hope that members agree and will support my amendments.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Jim Fairlie

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Jim Fairlie

If all animals are sentient, how do you justify a fox killing a lamb or several lambs in order to take a tail or an ear to give as a trinket to cubs? Do we accept the fact that foxes will kill lambs?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Jim Fairlie

Will the member take an intervention on that point?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Jim Fairlie

Can Colin Smyth explain to the committee what other methods he would use in an area of woodland covering 1,000 acres?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Avian Flu in Scotland

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Jim Fairlie

Right. It has been a while since I have raced pigeons.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Avian Flu in Scotland

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Jim Fairlie

I understand that.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Jim Fairlie

My question is on that point.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Avian Flu in Scotland

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Jim Fairlie

That is exactly the point that I was making—you have hit the nail on the head. In 2001, Scotland had a complete national shutdown because of foot-and-mouth disease, which devastated the industry. I remember that clearly, and it was a living hell. However, in 2007 there was a much smaller outbreak that could be contained in pockets. Is having independence crucial in making such decisions?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Avian Flu in Scotland

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Jim Fairlie

Thank you very much for that, Sheila; the evidence that you have given today has been fantastic and hugely helpful. However, I now have about 10 different questions and I will probably not get through them all.

First, I have a constituent whose free-range birds are about six miles away from Loch Leven. He is agitated about having tens of thousands of geese flying across his range daily—they fly across his range to feeding grounds near where I live and back again at night. What can he do with regard to his biosecurity in order to protect his flock? Could he house his birds because of that circumstance, and would that cause him to lose his free range status?