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We are coming up to our end time. Is there anything else that we have not covered in our questions that either of the witnesses would like to add before we close our meeting?

Okay. Thanks very much.

Good morning, and welcome to the 33rd meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies this morning.

Our main item of business is to continue to take evidence on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. Today, we will continue phase 2 of our scrutiny and focus specifically on part 4 of the bill, which covers the abolition of the not proven verdict and changes to jury sizes and majorities.

We are joined by Sandy Brindley, who is chief executive of Rape Crisis Scotland, and Mr Joe Duffy. I welcome you both.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow around 60 minutes for this evidence session.

I will begin with a general opening question. I will go to Sandy Brindley first and then to Mr Duffy. We understand that you support a move to a two-verdict system and the removal of the not proven verdict. What are your reasons for that position?

I will bring John Swinney back in.

Eamon Keane, do you have anything to add?

That was helpful.

We will bring our session to a close. Thank you both very much for what has been a helpful and informative session.

That concludes our public agenda item for today. At our next meeting, on 6 December, we will continue our evidence taking on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill by hearing from representatives of survivors of crime on the abolition of the not proven verdict and on jury majorities.

Can you say more about your observations of what you felt were the strengths of the mock jury trials that you arranged?

Thank you. That is really helpful. I am just going to bring in other members because I know that they will be keen to probe those findings. Rona Mackay would like to start off.

Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Fulton MacGregor joins us online.

Under our first item of business, we will continue to take evidence on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. We are beginning phase 2 of our scrutiny of the bill. That focuses specifically on part 4, which covers the abolition of the not proven verdict and changes to jury sizes and majorities. We expect phase 2 to run to the end of this year, after which we will consider the last two parts of the bill.

We are joined, from the University of Glasgow school of law, by Professor Fiona Leverick, professor of criminal law and criminal justice, and Eamon Keane, lecturer in evidence and criminal procedure. I welcome you both.

I refer members to papers 1 to 3. I intend to allow about 90 minutes for this session, but it might run on, if required, as part 4 is a key area of the bill.

I will begin with a general opening question, which I will direct to Professor Leverick. The Scottish jury research that you were involved in informed the approach that the Scottish Government has taken in part 4 of the bill. Before we consider the relevant findings of the research, will you outline what you see as the strengths and possible limitations of the research methodology in relation to, for example, the use of mock juries?