Seòmar agus comataidhean

I invite Russell Findlay to ask the final questions.

I am not sure that that necessarily relates to the bill. Mr Findlay might want to rephrase the question, and it is up to you, Ms McQueen, if you want to answer it.

Our next panel of witnesses is from Police Scotland. I welcome to the meeting Alan Speirs, the deputy chief constable, professionalism, strategy and engagement; Helen Harrison, chief superintendent and head of the professional standards department; and Nicky Page, head of human resources. Thank you all for providing written evidence to the committee.

I intend to allow about 80 minutes for this evidence session. I will begin with a question that I put to our witnesses from the Scottish Police Authority. Witnesses will probably be aware that we have heard evidence from members of the public who have described what seems to have been an inconsistent and, in some cases, unacceptable standard of response when they made a complaint to Police Scotland about the conduct of officers. In addition, we have heard that, when police officers are the subject of a complaint, the way that they are treated falls short of what is expected. One officer, of whom witnesses will probably be aware of, shared his very distressing story with us.

Police Scotland has a lot of work to do internally on handling complaints; that is important because the majority of complaints are probably dealt with internally. I want to ask about the provisions of the bill and about what is required to improve the system of complaints handling. Is there an internal process whereby learning from complaints handling is used? Is there work to monitor complaints trends and issues that arise from them, and is any measuring done so that action can be taken to make changes and so that you can ultimately intervene in complaints of a type that reoccur? Those questions are about quality assurance and the response when complaints are made internally. I ask DCC Speirs to start.

Thank you. We raised the issue of public trust and confidence, which you spoke about at the beginning of your answer, with the SPA. Are there provisions in the bill that would enhance public trust and confidence? One of the witnesses in the previous session spoke about the call-in provision and the code of ethics, which he felt was of particular value. I am interested in whether there are parts of the bill that are important for public trust and confidence.

Nicky Page, do you have further comments to add?

That is a comprehensive and helpful opening statement. I will start with a question. You spoke about Lady Elish’s significant work, which underpins where we are today. We know that many of the recommendations in her report have already been put in place, are under way or are being implemented. My question is about measuring progress. As you said in your opening comments, we have taken evidence from individuals in previous evidence sessions and we have heard from members of the public who described what seemed to be inconsistent and, in some cases, unacceptable standards of response when they made a complaint to Police Scotland about the conduct of officers. In addition, as you reference, we heard evidence that, when police officers are the subject of a complaint, the way that they are treated seems to fall short. We heard from one officer who shared his distressing story with us.

I am interested in exploring a bit more about what work the Scottish Police Authority undertakes to look at the views of those who have made complaints, whether they be police officers and staff or members of the public, to measure their experience in the context of the improvements that we are all trying to make and, in particular, the Scottish Police Authority is trying to make in and around the way that complaints are dealt with.

That is interesting. I have a final, quick question from Rona Mackay, and then we will have to draw the session to a close.

As we have been considering the bill, I have found myself becoming interested in what brings a police officer or member of staff into the process, whether it is in relation to a complaint against them or an allegation of misconduct. What is it about the demands of the job, the environment or the circumstances that results in them ending up in that conduct space?

Pauline McNeill spoke about a relatively high number of incidents involving allegations of police assault. Given your longevity in the world of justice, I am very interested in your observations on what is pressing down on police officers or staff that puts them in a position where they are facing a complaint or an allegation of misconduct. It is a big question, but I am interested in what the societal factors might be.

The Home Office review, which I mentioned in my first question, also notes that the introduction of legally qualified chairs for all ranks has introduced delays into the system. It has also left chief constables with “insufficient responsibility” or oversight

“over proceedings relating to their own workforce”.

Do you have any comments on that? Would that finding shift your view on recommending the introduction of independent, legally qualified chairs for all ranks of officers?

Good morning, and welcome to the 19th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies.

Our business today is to continue our evidence taking on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at stage 1.

I welcome to the meeting the Rt Hon Lady Elish Angiolini KC, who joins us remotely. We are grateful to her for agreeing to provide evidence to the committee.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 60 minutes for this evidence session.

I have an opening question, Lady Elish. Since you produced your review of the police complaints process in 2020, the Scottish Government has introduced the bill that we are currently scrutinising. There have also been high-profile cases involving complaints and matters such as vetting, such as the Gemma MacRae decision in Scotland and the Sarah Everard case in England. Will the bill as it is currently drafted make the difference that you would like to see? Alternatively, do changes or improvements need to be made to it? If so, how?