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Does the cabinet secretary want to come back in, before I move on to another member?

We are aware that, over the years, more and more roles and responsibilities in Police Scotland that were once undertaken by officers are being undertaken by staff. It is important that that is recognised.

Good morning, and welcome to the 22nd meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies.

Our business today is our final stage 1 evidence session on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the meeting the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, Angela Constance; Kevin Lee and Steven Bunch from the Scottish Government’s police division; and Caroline Kubala from the Scottish Government legal directorate. Thank you for agreeing to provide evidence to the committee today.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for this evidence session.

I invite the cabinet secretary to make some opening remarks.

Thank you very much for that helpful opening and setting of the scene.

I will kick things off. As you said, the Scottish Government’s aspiration is that the bill will ensure that there are robust, clear and transparent mechanisms for investigating complaints and allegations of misconduct. During our evidence sessions, the issue of culture has come up. Witnesses have told us that, for them to have real confidence in the police complaints system, the culture in Police Scotland must change. It is clear that a lot of work has been going on in policing to implement the non-legislative recommendations in Lady Elish Angiolini’s review. That was particularly highlighted last week by the chief inspector of His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland, who reflected on his recent inspection on organisational culture. He said:

“there was a real gap in the provision of leadership training and cultural change during the first five or six years”—

of Police Scotland’s existence—

“and it was a very different organisation to the one that we see today. I see that as positive.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 23 May 2024; c 2.]

From your perspective and in the context of what the bill is seeking to do, do you feel that we are starting to see the necessary culture change in Police Scotland?

I will bring in Katy Clark, and then I will bring Russell Findlay back in very quickly.

We have a final question from Russell Findlay.

Good morning, and welcome to the 21st meeting of the Criminal Justice Committee in 2024. We have no apologies. Fulton MacGregor is joining us online.

Our business today is to continue our stage 1 evidence taking on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome Craig Naylor, His Majesty’s chief inspector of constabulary in Scotland, and thank him for agreeing to give evidence to the committee and for his written submission. I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 60 minutes for this evidence session.

I will open with a general question about culture. Lady Elish Angiolini’s reports into the handling processes for complaints about the police were published in 2019 and 2020 and contain a number of recommendations to improve the culture in Police Scotland. You also reported on the findings of your inspection of the organisational culture in Police Scotland in December last year and I was interested to note a couple of your general findings, the first of which was:

“We found a consensus that the service is on a journey of change and improvement, heading in a more positive direction than previously, and that culture is dramatically different from the early days of Police Scotland.”

I also noted a finding about leadership behaviour. You wrote:

“Police Scotland is planning and undertaking a number of initiatives to embed appropriate leadership behaviours, attitudes and values at all levels in the service.”

I am interested to hear your opening thoughts about the impact of the implementation of the recommendations that have been made, specifically regarding improvements that have already been made and leadership. Does the extensive work that you have done suggest that Police Scotland has provided the required culture change?

Thank you for that. I will open up the questioning to other members.

There is a proposal in the bill about the PIRC calling in complaints in certain circumstances. In your submission, you are supportive of the PIRC having a statutory power to take over an investigation if that is deemed to be necessary. Will you outline your thinking behind that, including why you are supportive of it? We had strong evidence on that yesterday from the SPA.

I think that I am right in saying that the federation took the view that former colleagues can be harder on others. Have you thought about that?