Seòmar agus comataidhean

Given your observation about the wide range of the committee’s remit, convener, I should say that it is probably unrealistic for us to be able to cover all the issues that you might have questions about in one hour. I therefore reiterate that I look forward to coming back to the committee, and, in the meantime, I hope that we can inform the committee about any queries that you might have through letters.

By way of an update on the status of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, the legislation has been in force since 1 January 2021, and Scottish Government officials are engaging across a number of related fronts on a factual basis and without prejudice to ministers’ fundamental opposition to it. The Scottish Government is seeing a wide range of impacts on policy and on public investment, and the frameworks team can supply further detail on request, if the committee wants a bit more information on that, relating to examples of known and emerging risks to devolved decision making, and on technical aspects of the 2020 act’s operation.

The Scottish Government’s concerns have been shared with the UK Government, and we have been working in conjunction with colleagues in Wales and Northern Ireland. The views that I am expressing today, and which the Scottish Government is expressing, are shared by the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. This will be a really big issue throughout this parliamentary session, and we will no doubt come back to it again and again.

In the precisely two and a half minutes that I have to answer that question—

I suspect that the gaming sector is the area that I will have to write back to the convener about after the evidence session. I can speak generally. This is not gaming in the sense of betting, although there is a lottery in the locus because the headquarters of the People’s Postcode Lottery is in Edinburgh Central. That impacts significantly on the culture and charity sector. I may have come to this by a circuitous route, but it is relevant to the committee and to me as a minister and as an MSP. I was previously unaware of it because I am not a gambler and do not buy lottery tickets; you may be experts, but I am not. The lottery is a charitable organisation and the numbers are extremely significant. The lottery is very forward leaning in its work with charities, especially in the cultural sector. It works on a grass-roots level and is also supportive of larger cultural organisations.

Some aspects of lottery governance come under devolved legislation and some relate to reserved legislation. The committee might look more closely at that to see whether it is relevant. There are unresolved governance issues that affect that Edinburgh-based lottery and its ability to grow and to continue to support charities and cultural organisations. The committee might want to have a look at that.

I am so sorry—

Access to culture is another subject that could have an evidence session all of its own, and a number of obvious areas around culture and access to culture should be high on our priority list.

For the sake of argument—because we are sitting here—let us take the example of festivals in Edinburgh. The Edinburgh festival fringe and certain venues have tried to make sure that, in particular, younger people from deprived backgrounds in more socially challenged parts of the city feel that cultural life, such as festivals, includes them and their part of Edinburgh and is not just something that happens “over there”. There is a long track record of that work, which goes back to the Craigmillar festival, for example. That subject is hugely important to me; I have discussed it with people who have been running festivals in Edinburgh and, in fairness to them, it is also a big priority for them. We must do everything that we can to foster better cultural access on that level and make sure that it is a year-round experience and not just a matter of saying, “Oh, the festivals are in August—let’s arrange for buses for kids from this primary school to go to the performance of that particular event.” Good though that might be, we have to ensure that cultural opportunity is an all-year-round experience and that it is mainstream to learning.

I do not know where to start with the observation about Scottish literature. Imagine living in a country where it is abnormal to learn about the literature of your own country. It seems preposterous that that would be the case anywhere but, more specifically, it seems absurd for that to be the case in this country, although things are changing. I think that I am right in saying that a previous schools minister had particularly strong views on that and made efforts to ensure that at least one piece of Scottish literature was taught as part of the higher programme. Sorry—I am being elliptical. For those who are reading the Official Report and not seeing our proceedings, I am looking directly at Dr Allan, who was that schools minister. We have to do better and, incidentally, we also have to do better in teaching our history, which should go without saying.

There are a number of points to make about access to culture. I am committed to it, as is the Scottish Government, and I have given examples of how we make sure that everybody has access to culture, but the gamut goes much further than that. We need to help introduce everybody to the amazing culture that we have on our doorstep. One person’s idea of culture is not shared by everybody and we have to realise that, for some people, it includes online games, as was mentioned in an earlier question. There is a cultural dimension to gaming and I will not be snooty about it. Similarly, we are lucky that the cultural offering in this country runs the full gamut from the high arts to the alternative and traditional Scottish sectors. Everybody should have an introduction to that offering, so that they can have an appreciation of it and, on the basis of having been exposed to it, choose what they have a personal interest in. The idea that we are a country that does not teach our literature or has a lack of awareness of our history should be consigned to the history books.

I will add a supplementary thought to all that, given what is going on at present and the debate in Parliament this afternoon on Afghanistan. It is important that people who come to this country have the opportunity to learn about the culture, history and society that they will now share. That is a priority for me and for the organisations that work in that field, such as the Scottish Refugee Council and a variety of non-governmental and Afghan Scots community organisations. We need to be imaginative about how we help the people who come to these shores in our schools and through our cultural organisations. As we know, they can become hyphenated Scots if they want to be, as soon as they want to be. Everybody should have access to culture.

Indeed—including those in Argyll and Bute. In its way, that production was groundbreaking in showing that there was a hunger throughout the country for a cultural offering. The great news is that there is such an offering across the spectrum, from organisations such as Scottish Opera and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and I could go on, but from more alternative organisations such as Neu! Reekie!, which normally performs in Edinburgh but which performs in other parts of the country, too—I have seen it perform in Elgin.

That work needs to be supported, and the good news is that, as part of its first 100 days in office, the Scottish Government is delivering on the touring fund, which is not to be confused with the Turing fund—the UK Government’s anaemic replacement fund for the Erasmus+ programme. The Scottish Government’s fund relates to touring in the sense of travelling around the country, as opposed to the esteemed scientist Turing. As well as making sure that cultural organisations and individual performers can access funds to tour around Scotland, which is a good thing, we are ensuring that museums and galleries are lending their collections—whether of works of art or historical items—to different parts of the country, because that needs to be supported.

Staycations are great not just for bouncing back from Covid but in enabling people to get out of cities and to go to different parts of Scotland. It has been so nice to see people who, in other circumstances, would almost certainly not have gone to where they have gone on a staycation. Through that, they have learned about other parts of the country and what they have to offer. I know that communities right around the country are doing their best to make sure that people who visit have a good cultural offering and a good cultural experience, rather than just going somewhere to do, say, paddle boarding.

Turning to Gaelic, I declare an interest: I am not a Gaelic speaker, but I have the good fortune to have a second language, and I know that having a second language—whichever language that is—is transformational for people. It opens up another world. Therefore, I am a huge supporter of people being able to learn other languages.

We do not have enough time today to discuss the historic role of Gaelic as a language of this country. Our past relationship with that language leaves much to be desired. We are dealing with the results of that. The number of people speaking Gaelic as a first language has reduced to an all-time low. The good news, as we know, is that the number of pupils in Gaelic-medium schools is rising. They are among the most popular schools in the country. I can attest to that in Edinburgh, where parents from non-Gaelic speaking—and even non-English speaking—families are very keen for their kids to go there, That is because of the educational benefits of being able to speak another language and also because of the cultural inheritance.

I am a massive supporter of the language. The Scottish Government has a role to play in the cultural offering. That may be in education. That is not my responsibility, but I know that my colleagues who are responsible for education are supportive of that. Broadcasting is part of my area. Gaelic is also important there and much more can be done. It is encouraging that a number of regular viewers of BBC Alba are non-Gaelic speakers. You could call it a gateway broadcaster for people whose first interest might be in watching football but who watch and enjoy the commentary in Gaelic, which might help to foster an interest in the language.

I hope that answers your question. There is much that we can do. We can connect that to my responsibility for external affairs. I do not know whether it has struck members of the committee, but the number of people who are learning Gaelic and are not even from Scotland is remarkable. The committee may not be aware of this, but one of Scotland’s leading Gaelic language newsreaders is not from Scotland—he is German.

That is another Argyll and Bute connection. We must understand that Gaelic is not only a historic language of Scotland and something that we should learn and enjoy; it is also of huge interest to people elsewhere. That is a thoroughly good thing.

To be concrete about it, I wish that the framework process, which has been going on and on, could be completed and agreed, and that the frameworks were operating in such a way that then precludes the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 from impacting on devolved areas. That would be a pretty good short-term solution, which would free you up to actually scrutinise the workings of said frameworks. That would be a good thing.

I am not entirely sure—we may have different perceptions of how short the short-term short term is, but it is the Government’s intention that, within the current parliamentary session, the people of Scotland should be able to determine the future governance of this country. Whatever we consider to be short term, medium term and long term, we intend to take that forward in this parliamentary session. That will allow us to think completely differently about the interrelationship of Governments and governance on these islands.

I stress that, for me, an important dimension in the next stage in Scotland’s democratic journey is our interrelationship with the rest of the United Kingdom, which will still remain the primary relationship that we have. Obviously, during the Covid restrictions, my ability to take part in face-to-face meetings has been restricted—as it has been for all members and for the rest of society—but I am pleased that, this weekend, I will take part in my first face-to-face intergovernmental event at which I will meet members of the UK Government, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Government of the Irish Republic at the British-Irish Association.

Given the suboptimal way in which things currently operate in the devolved settlement, it behoves us all to work out how things can work better on the basis of Scotland being a sovereign state like the Irish Republic. That is not all plain sailing, as we have observed during Brexit, but I am very cognisant of the issue and I want good formal and informal relations between the nations of these islands. I am of the view that we will be in the best possible position to pursue our interests, and our shared interests, by being a sovereign equal and, in our case, a member state of the European Union, which we would then be, together with the Irish Republic. There would also be new machinery, and we would need to think about how we can make that work optimally.

Obviously, we want the people of Scotland to decide on that once we emerge from the Covid phase that we are in now, but it is very high up on my working list. After all, the manifesto that I was elected on, and the manifestoes that the majority of members in the Parliament were elected on, said that we would deliver that referendum within the current parliamentary session.

No—it was the British-Irish Association, which is perhaps less known. The British-Irish Council is of course important. We should not lose sight of the fact that its secretariat is headquartered in Scotland, in this very city. It is an example of machinery that was agreed as part of the Good Friday agreement. Obviously, we hope that the situation in Northern Ireland does not deteriorate. I very much hope that the interrelationship between Governments on these islands can be improved. The British-Irish Association is another format that brings together Government representatives from across these islands.

I could probably speak for the next hour on that subject alone. First, I will set out my starting principle. You might be interested in hearing more detail on this, but since I have taken up office, I have been working closely with colleagues in the UK Government and the devolved Administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland. In my engagement with UK Government colleagues, I have made it absolutely clear that, in finding workable solutions to issues of governance, administration, democratic oversight and the reform of arrangements, I am extremely keen to do so on a collegial basis, to find agreement where it can be found and to overcome any administrative blockages, if I can put it that way. I am acting in good faith to try to deliver on the wish that surely everyone in Government should have to operate as best we can.

A concrete example of how it might be possible to improve things is the issue of frameworks. The subject itself might seem slightly dry, but the framework agreements are the method by which a United Kingdom that has left the European Union can best operate with the devolved Administrations. It goes back to principles that were agreed in October 2017. I must point out that the timeline is important to understanding what is going on below the surface. Commitments were made about the way in which Governments could and should work together, but, subsequently, the UK Government decided to pursue the 2020 act, which in effect drives a coach and horses through the devolution settlement. As a result, progress on the detail of framework agreements has neither been as quick nor gone as far as I—and, no doubt, the committee in wishing to scrutinise the frameworks—would have wished. Frankly, it has not been good enough.

I have discussed the issue in person with Chloe Smith, a UK Government minister in the Cabinet Office, whom I know. Having spent 16 years at Westminster, I know a lot of the UK Government ministers and interlocutors, as you might imagine. That is a good thing, because we agreed to work and act in good faith to try to make progress on the framework agreements, on which such progress has been too slow or, indeed, not been made. In answer to your question on how we can make things work better, I think that that is a concrete way in which that could happen.

A more general observation that goes across the piece with regard to internal Government relations—and something that I have asked that we log from now on—relates to how meetings and discussions that involve the UK Government on specific matters that Governments have supposed to progress operate in practice. It is hard to reach any other conclusion but that the UK Government’s determined and deliberate approach towards the Scottish Government—and, by extension, the Scottish Parliament—is not to inform the Scottish Government, or to inform it late, and not to involve it in all relevant meetings.

When one takes part in meetings, the thing that one hears most often is “noted”. Apparently, one will hear later that the things that were discussed have been fully consulted on. I suspect that, if being consulted means taking part in Teams or Zoom meetings at which UK Government ministers simply say, “noted”, that will fall far short of the expectations of the Scottish Government and, I expect, this committee.

We have a profound challenge in how we deal with the UK Government because, frankly, not only is the relationship between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations suboptimal, but the UK Government is pursuing policies that are aimed at undermining and denuding the devolved settlement that was agreed by the people of Scotland—and, incidentally, the devolved settlements that were agreed by the people of Wales and Northern Ireland.

No doubt, those are questions that you would want to ask any UK Government minister if they deign to turn up. I look forward to watching such an evidence session with interest.