Seòmar agus comataidhean

I thank Ross Greer and Miles Briggs for lodging their amendments. Secure transport of children is a very important matter, and a range of work is on-going in that area. As Ross Greer mentioned, the Government has worked with him on amendment 212, which has been carefully framed to take account of wider matters.

It is envisaged that the standards that ministers would be obliged to publish and report on would draw heavily on the service specification that the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities have produced. The committee heard about that at stage 1; however, it is not mandatory. Amendment 212 would therefore allow for a set of national standards to which all those who commission secure transport must adhere.

The service specification prohibits use of mechanical restraint, handcuffs or pain-inducing techniques. Careful consideration will be given to the issue before ministers produce the standards. We are aware that, as has been discussed this morning, restraint might be required as an option in a very small number of cases, as a last resort, either to protect a child or to protect those who transport them. The alternative might be the police being called, which would bring a criminal justice response.

On the subject of a national regulator, we have noted the concerns that were raised by the Care Inspectorate in its evidence, regarding its role and remit. However, I assure the committee that discussions on that are on-going. I cannot pre-empt them, but I reassure the committee and other members that existing legislative provision enables the functions of registering, regulating and inspecting secure transport services to be conferred on the Care Inspectorate. Although I am not saying that that is the direction in which things will certainly go, it is useful information in the context of the window of opportunity that is presented by the bill.

In addition, my officials continue to work with relevant agencies on a national contract that would standardise matters related to providers and provide an approach for across Scotland. I commend Miles Briggs for raising those matters in his amendment 162. He has said that he will not move the amendment, so I will not go into detail.

Mr Briggs also referred to data collection. I would be happy to have a discussion with him on any gaps that he feels there are in relation to production of the standards.

In summary, I support amendment 212 and I ask the committee to do likewise.

I have not personally discussed the issue with the Care Inspectorate, but those conversations have taken place at official level. In the light of committee concerns about gaps in what is being considered, I would certainly be happy to take that idea away. However, I will go through some assurances about providing those safeguards.

The Care Inspectorate guidance considers the impact of the proposed placement on other children who are living in the secure accommodation and any reasons why that placement should not be approved. The particular circumstances or needs of other children in that setting will all be considered.

The wording does not necessarily describe the behaviour.

Those are not concerns that are being raised with me now. As I said, when I met Children’s Hearings Scotland prior to the summer, it was very enthusiastic and hopeful about the recruitment campaign that it was about to run. I understand that the recruitment campaign did not take in as many volunteers or new panel members as we had hoped, but it is for the national convener to decide on how best to proceed on attracting panel members.

As I said, a number of matters are being considered in relation to the children’s hearings system redesign—not just the role of panel members—which could help with future capacity.

I have no further comments to make. I press amendment 112.

I understand that some committee members, in their scrutiny of the bill, have highlighted concerns about children who have committed an offence being placed in secure accommodation with other children. That was raised this morning. I also note from last week’s committee session that there is a need for further reassurance on the safeguarding measures that are in place in secure accommodation.

All of Scotland’s secure accommodation providers offer an integrated model of delivery. There is a long-established understanding that all children who have been placed in secure accommodation have experienced or are experiencing extreme needs, risks and vulnerabilities in their lives.

I appreciate that amendments 108 and 109, in the name of Roz McCall, are probing amendments, but they would go against that approach. Committee members can be confident in the existing experience and expertise of secure accommodation providers in matching children to placements and managing the needs and risk profiles of each child who enters secure accommodation. Individualised risk assessments and plans are made to meet each child’s needs, ensuring that the safety and protection of children and staff are at the core of the decision making.

I want to be very clear that I have said that I will consider the matter. We have sought appropriate legal advice and have proceeded on that basis. Mr Kerr made reference to media law experts. It is the role of the Lord Advocate to satisfy herself on legality, not media law experts. I will make no further comment on the matter at the moment other than to say that I have given assurances to the committee and I am happy to come back to the matter at a later stage.

Amendments 218 and 219, as Martin Whitfield alluded to, cover ground similar to that covered in amendments that were lodged previously. I will not talk about every amendment in the group, as I understand that Mr Whitfield does not intend to press or move his amendments. However, I have already confirmed that I will be discussing the issue further.

I turn to amendment 220. I fully appreciate the challenges that are inherent in the scale and operational needs of the children’s hearings system. I have met Children’s Hearings Scotland, and further meetings are being scheduled with the organisation to make sure that the previous assurances that it gave me that appropriate plans are in place to ensure capacity in the current tribunal model are maintained.

Placing a duty on ministers to report to Parliament on whether there are sufficient numbers of panel members would present a couple of problems. We would risk interfering with the absolutely vital independence of the national convener of Children’s Hearings Scotland. It is for the national convener to determine how to resource children’s panels, as enshrined in the Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011.

Beyond that fundamental principle, amendment 220 would have serious practical implications. It would risk removing flexibility now and in the future, given that identifying a pre-determined figure on which to base commencement of the bill would create a number of limitations. We must recognise, for example, that the number of hearings and the number of panel members are not fixed. The number of hearings that are scheduled each year can and does change, as can the number of volunteers who are required on a month-to-month basis. In addition, any one volunteer might have more or less time to give to the system than another. Therefore, we could have thousands of volunteers but, depending on their availability, that would not necessarily mean system readiness or capacity. I do not feel that reading into the numbers specifically in that way is necessarily helpful.

Absolutely.

Thank you for the intervention. I do not feel that it needs to be as prescriptive as that. As I have said, commencement plans will, in practical terms, rely on a positive Children’s Hearings Scotland report on the numbers. The bill would not be commenced without an assurance that the numbers are in place to cope with the situation.

On Ruth Maguire’s point about discussions, the situation is fluid, which is why those on-going discussions are important. For example, in November, Children’s Hearings Scotland planned to run a February recruitment campaign, but now it does not, because, I believe, the situation has improved. It is fluid, it is fluctuating and it needs to be considered on a continual basis, rather than setting in stone what is required for it to go ahead.

I am trying to set out why I do not feel that the amendment is necessary at this stage, and I hope that I have provided reassurances in that respect. I have said everything that I was planning to say in response to those interventions, so I ask the relevant members not to move the amendments in the group, and if they do, I ask the committee to reject them for the reasons that I have outlined.

Absolutely. As I said, I will make all efforts that I can to encourage take-up of that provision.

On the issue of rurality and distance, there are a number of reasons why uptake might not be as high for our two-year-olds as it is for our three to five-year-olds. I am certainly looking to understand the reasons for that variation.