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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 November 2024
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Displaying 948 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

Again, to come back to the issue of cladding—I am sure that this will come up next week—discussions are continuing with developers about the single building assessment process and how we take that issue forward. On that issue, I think that a number of amendments to the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Bill are being lodged by Mark Griffin and Miles Briggs and I imagine that there will be others. I think that discussions are continuing with developers on that. As the bill progresses and discussions go beyond it, that matter will be brought up and discussed. However, it is really important to speak to developers about that. There are on-going discussions about the SBA process, which we will touch on in more detail next week, I am sure. However, again, the issue that you mentioned could be considered as we get more into the depths of what the developers say on how we can work with them collaboratively. That is a really important point—that we work in partnership with them on that.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

Not as yet, but we hope that we will get some kind of report, as I said, post the summer recess. We have had an indication that there will be an update in the autumn, so that could be between September and November.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

With regard to local government, I have tried to get round to as many local authorities as I possibly can—I have about three to go, and then I will have been round all of them. The issue that comes up first and foremost is what they should prioritise. We are having discussions around the retrofitting agenda, and local authorities have prepared their local heat and energy efficiency strategies. What happens beyond that is the deliverability, which is due towards the end of this year. The green heat finance task force is looking broadly at how that work is financed—it is looking at local authorities and registered social landlords, and how those can be funded.

We are also talking about investment in new stock, and where that fits in. The repairing standard applies in that regard. One element of that is that local authorities should always, in preparing their budgets, be engaging on, and looking at, how that aspect fits in. For local authorities, the role is very different. The green heat and retrofitting agenda, and how authorities invest in that, or invest in new stock, is an on-going discussion, and there will be different solutions for different local authorities. They will prioritise what they need to in that regard. It is up to each local authority what it chooses to do around that point.

Having had 15 years of experience in local authorities, I know that that discussion came up every year. One would hope that a local authority would seek to ensure that priorities are updated every year. There was a maintenance backlog after Covid, on which local authorities are starting to catch up. Again, however, that is a decision for each local authority, and we are working with them on that.

On things such as damp and mould, for example—which you mentioned, convener—the Scottish Housing Regulator has a role, and there are discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and ALACHO on that. Again, it depends on each local authority, and we are working with them on that. We have been working a wee bit with ALACHO on that point to ensure that it is picked up.

There is a broader issue with adaptations, which fits into the broader agenda. Each local authority probably knows more than anybody else about that in respect of their specific area, so we are working with local authorities individually and ensuring that local teams are working with them on that. However, it ultimately comes down to each local authority making its own decision on investment in retrofitting, for example.

The role for national Government is to work with local authorities in terms of funding for adaptations and so on, and we are working closely with the Scottish Housing Regulator, ALACHO and COSLA on the themes that emerge.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I will come back to that question in a second. The first point is that we are working with the Scottish Housing Regulator on identifying properties that are affected, through both local authorities and housing associations. We are still working with the regulator on that, and it is doing the engagement.

On the specific issues that have been picked up, we go back to the impact of the incident down south, when we started to look at the issues through the RAAC oversight group.

To come back to the housing point, a number of local authorities have been in touch. Clackmannanshire Council was identified as having a small number of properties. Aberdeen City Council is in a similar position, with a slightly larger number of properties. I have met Clackmannanshire on a number of occasions, and I have also met Aberdeen. Both local authorities are going through an options appraisal at the moment, which is important. They have looked at some of the houses that are impacted by RAAC, some of which may be repairable and some of which may not, so a broader overview is being undertaken by Clackmannanshire and Aberdeen. We continue to engage with them, and when they come back with their options appraisals, we will sit down with them and discuss them in more detail. So, there have been discussions and I am happy to pick up with you in relation to the issues that you mentioned in Midlothian.

Aberdeen and Clackmannanshire have been impacted the most by the issue, so we have had a number of meetings and we continue to work with them. The options appraisal is a really important part of it, and there is detailed work going on in both local authorities on what they need to do to move that forward. The complexity is that some properties are privately owned and some are owned by the local authority. We continue to engage with both Aberdeen and Clackmannanshire and with other local authorities, and the broader RAAC oversight group is looking at the issue.

It is very much an on-going discussion, but there have not been any requirements for funding. In relation to the asks, we have worked very closely with Clackmannanshire and Aberdeen on some of the more detailed work that they need to do on the properties.

It is an on-going situation, particularly for those two local authorities. Aberdeen, for example, has indicated that its work will take six months from around March or April, so it is talking about reporting in late summer. We continue to engage regularly with both local authorities and we will see what specific demands come out of the overall work that they are doing just now.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

In Aberdeen, it is more individual houses that are involved. The fact that RAAC has been identified does not mean that it cannot be remediated—the condition surveys that are carried out on the properties will identify that. Part of the options appraisal is to ask whether a property can be remediated or whether other options are available. That work is being done in Aberdeen, and there is liaison with the Scottish Government and building control colleagues. When the options appraisal comes forward, it will identify what the council needs to do.

The identification of RAAC does not mean that it cannot be repaired. The key element is what the costs are for local authority and private residents.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I will come back to you on that, because I have a couple of points to make. On empty homes, the Scottish Government has spent approximately £3.2 million, and we have just announced another £423,000 to work with the Scottish Empty Homes Partnership, which has brought back more than 9,000 homes.

The issue of empty homes is slightly different from the issue of voids, which I will come back to. The work on empty homes continues to develop, and it has been encouraging.

I come back to a point that Stephanie Callaghan made. Local housing strategies must address voids and empty homes. It has been encouraging to see local authorities using some of the funding that is coming through to take on more empty homes officers, because that is really important and there is a real focus on that.

The issue of empty homes can be complicated. The properties might have been left in probate, or they might have complicated ownership—such as when people live overseas—so the situation is sometimes not simple. The Scottish Empty Homes Partnership has worked really well to deliver a number of houses, and that is why we are giving it more funding of over £400,000.

The voids issue is really important. You mentioned Edinburgh, which has a real focus on that. We spoke to City of Edinburgh Council about the issue around a month ago; it comes up regularly. That council is talking about how it looks at voids. We are also in discussions with COSLA and ALACHO about a focus on voids.

The Scottish Government and local authorities need to do more work collectively on what needs to be done in relation to important issues such as the fact that there are properties that are not available for use as temporary accommodation because of the voids issue. The issue of empty homes can be more complex, but we cannot separate the two issues. Allocation policies are also important, and there are on-going discussions about that, too.

10:15  

The voids situation differs in different parts of Scotland. You mentioned the number of voids that Edinburgh has. We have been at various round tables where that has been discussed, and I think that Edinburgh is making progress, although it needs to do so more quickly. There must be a focus on the issue in Edinburgh and across Scotland. That comes back to having broader discussions about the focus on voids, on allocations and on empty homes. When I have discussions with local authorities, we get into the details of those issues. There has been a level of success in the work that continues to be done on empty homes, but the issue is complex. When I was in Orkney about a month or six weeks ago, I discussed the fact that there are about 700 empty homes there. How does the Scottish Empty Homes Partnership work to bring those houses back, given that some of them are on islands that are less populated? A piece of work is going on around that.

More local authorities are taking on empty homes officers, which is encouraging in times when we all acknowledge that funding is particularly difficult. Those councils see the benefit of having empty homes officers who can take on that work.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I think that you are right, convener. When you and I were at the rural housing conference a couple of months ago, I think—I am trying to remember when it was—that very issue was raised, and it is incredibly important.

I said at that conference that I was keen to get out, as I did last summer, and visit as many communities as possible to talk not just about how we build more housing but about the points that have been raised. We talked about Raasay becoming carbon neutral, for example; that is all about encouraging not just local authorities but local communities to take on the issue. Indeed, with regard to carbon-neutral Raasay, we talked about how we can encourage other groups to pick that sort of thing up. The question is how we support local authorities in that respect, because the rural aspect, if you like, is incredibly important.

I have already had a number of invitations to go out and visit as many local island communities as possible this summer, and we will be picking those up and speaking to people about their own issues. However, you are right that we need to be more nuanced and to take a rural approach, too.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

A resource review for planning, which the Royal Town Planning Institute has been involved with, is under way. Craig McLaren is working on that and he has appeared at the committee to discuss it. Joe FitzPatrick and I hosted a round table with a number of developers from Homes for Scotland and other groups about three or four months ago, and we have another round table planned. One of the key issues that was discussed was how we develop the placemaking element, because I think that that is incredibly important for how we deliver for communities, rather than just considering how we deliver housing. The resource review is picking up on that issue.

You will remember the discussions that we had in the committee about NPF4 over a number of months—it felt like years at the time—on how we get the transition from NPF3 to NPF4 right, particularly with local development plans. Again, when we talk about the resource review, that is important. When we had the round table with the heads of planning, we talked about how that transition would work. Another round table is planned on that point.

Placemaking is essential; it is incredibly important. The resource element is part of that. As I said, there are on-going discussions about NPF4 and how it fits into local development plans, which we have discussed here in the committee. How we transition from NPF4 to local development plans, when they all take place at slightly different times, was always going to be a challenge. As I said, the resource review will play an important part in looking at that.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

Local place plans need to fit in with local development plans. We are talking about not just housing, but green space and how we encourage business growth. In the work that we are doing, one of the key things is working with Scottish and Southern Electricity Networks and local authorities on renewables hubs in Scotland. We are looking at what that means for temporary accommodation, opportunities for legacy housing and how we support business. A lot of work is going on with SSEN, which I will touch on later.

How we support business development will have an influence. We are looking at business, green space and the viability of high streets, for example, which you and I have chatted about, and has to do with town centres—that has to be an element. Placemaking is about not just new housing, but how everything fits in. Local place plans are an exciting part of what the Government is trying to do and everyone supports them. They can be complex, but they need to be community based, not developed only by the local authorities, for example. There needs to be an element of support for local communities who would like to develop those plans themselves. We need to make sure that those plans are resourced in local authorities, which is why the resource review is important.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

When we were in London, housing associations made that point during discussions that we had with the investment sector. Those things will be discussed and we will look at that point. Very quickly after the Housing (Scotland) Bill was published, I had a meeting with you, as Opposition spokesman, and Mr Griffin, and we will continue to be open about that issue—I wanted a very open and transparent process with you in that regard. Those things have been identified, and we will look at them and at broader investment opportunities, too.

A key point is that the housing investment task force was brought together to try to get the views of other stakeholders. We talked about the housing deliverability review and the input of stakeholders and I mentioned in my opening speech that I cannot deliver the ambitions in “Housing to 2040” on my own. We need support, influence and thoughts and ideas from the sector; it is very much about trying to look at that broader approach.

The other really important thing, which Homes for Scotland talked about, is how we develop the small and medium-sized enterprise market in Scotland to ensure that it plays an important part. It is not just about housing developers. Homes for Scotland members were there during discussions on how we support SMEs, and they feed into that process.

Again, it comes back to where housing associations will sit. The group will look into those issues in a lot more detail and will come forward with recommendations to Government. It is incredibly important to think about how we can flex the finance in the housing sector, not just in Scotland but across the UK, because, for example, there are guarantees that the UK Government has that we do not have that would make a massive difference. Again, we need to look at barriers and opportunities around what can be done and what might work in that regard. That is part of the broader work that is going on that feeds into the 2032 target around deliverability.

There are a few other things that I want to touch on with regard to demand and the opportunities around that in places such as town centres and city centres. Laura Dougan might want to say something about that.