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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 November 2024
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Displaying 948 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

There is obviously the work by the tenement maintenance working group, and I know that there have been discussions on that. Graham Simpson discussed the issue through the cross-party group on housing and raised it with me; I met him to discuss that particular point.

Work is still going on with the Scottish Law Commission around building maintenance and the related effects. We are waiting for the SLC to come back with an update on that, which I understand will be later in the year, in the autumn. It will be interesting to see what the Scottish Law Commission says, because we commissioned a piece of work from it on that specific issue.

Again, I am happy to come back to the committee on that point. I have said that I will come back to the cross-party group too, and I think that there is a separate building maintenance group within that which has been looking at the issue.

We are waiting to hear back from the Scottish Law Commission on its exact thoughts on that issue, because it is a complex legal area, hence why we asked the SLC for an update on that particular point. I am happy to come back and write to the committee at that stage, Mr Griffin.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

That involves working with the housing organisations. We have mentioned the work of the Scottish Association of Landlords, and I will raise that issue with it. I am also happy to take up this matter with you offline and to review it with the Scottish Housing Regulator. The feedback that we got from the sector suggested that the guidance was sufficient, but I am happy to take up that point and to come back to the committee on it.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

That is a really important point. I was in my constituency a couple of weeks ago at a project called insulate Innerwick. The village consists of around 400 houses and a group was started up. Two or three weeks ago it held an open day, and Changeworks and Energy Advice Scotland were there. About 100 people attended, and one of the key things that came up concerned that point about advice. The Scottish Government partly funds such organisations, and it is important that people get the right advice. People at the event gave examples of companies they had spoken to that had not met the standards.

There is work to be done around communication, which is really important, and it fits into the broader retrofitting agenda. That involves a fabric first approach and moves on to the question of how the house is heated. There is an element of working closely with Changeworks and Energy Advice Scotland on the work that needs to be done. At that meeting a few weeks ago, technical questions were being asked that I did not fully understand, but that is where the trained professionals came in.

It is about ensuring that, as the market continues to grow, it is regulated properly and that we keep an eye on how we regulate if we need to. It is also about ensuring that there is sufficient advice out there. Even at the one event that I was at, people were asking about that and giving examples of work being done that did not meet standards and had to be done again, while experts from Energy Advice Scotland and Changeworks were saying that that was not the approach that they would recommend.

There is a real role for making sure that there is enough advice out there on the retrofitting agenda and that people are getting the right advice, so that we avoid companies that do not have the proper training dealing with insulation projects for which they do not have the knowledge. As that sector continues to grow, it is a watch and brief situation.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

Very much so. If people can do that in a small village with 400 or 500 houses, how do we move towards that? How do we do that in urban Glasgow or in the Highlands? We have talked before about the carbon neutral islands project up in Raasay, which had a conference a few months ago. The challenges were around how to look at that in a remote community. There are projects out there that are working really well with regard to sharing the standard and so on. That was really encouraging and it is great to see what people are doing. There are examples and I think that that work will continue to grow. How does the Government support that? How do we support local communities? That is a really important part, because the solution in Innerwick would be different from what it was in Raasay or in urban Glasgow or Edinburgh. That is a piece of work that we will need to keep an eye on, because people will see the opportunities around that. However, we need to make sure that the advice that we have out there grows to meet the growing demand.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I come back to the point that the chancellor said that the UK Government would spend what is necessary, but there has been no funding. We continue to raise the issue with the UK Government, but nothing has been set aside; funding was not set aside in the budget.

Any answer would be hypothetical at this point, because we do not know what the options appraisal will say. I am happy to come back to the committee when we have more detail, such as from other local authorities. At this moment, anything would be hypothetical, because we do not know what any particular ask will be and whether any funding will come from the UK Government to address the matter. Obviously, the issue has continued to evolve in the rest of the UK, too. If there was additional funding from the UK Government and there were consequentials, that would change the situation but, at this moment, it is hard to indicate that when we do not know, and have not had any specific asks, about funding.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

There are a couple of important issues to mention, the first of which is data. In previous question sessions, we have talked about the data collection issues that arose during the pandemic. Local authorities are playing catch-up on that and will continue to do that work.

Secondly, social landlords are required by law to meet the housing standard, and the repairing standard statutory guidance sets out what private landlords need to do in that regard. If they are not meeting that standard, issues can be taken to the First-tier Tribunal for Scotland for determination.

Similarly, if the Scottish Housing Regulator does not think that local authorities are doing enough on damp and mould, for example, it can write to ask them for an action plan. We discuss that with the regulator on an on-going basis, and discussions with ALACHO and COSLA feed into that point. ALACHO has not specifically mentioned to me the issue that you raised, but I am happy to pick up that point with it and come back to the committee.

Guidelines exist and actions can be taken, and COSLA is catching up on data collection. In general, the figures that we referenced are standing still. We are working with ALACHO, COSLA and the regulator on how we take the issue forward.

I am happy to come back to the committee on the point that you mentioned and I can contact ALACHO about its specific concerns. I have not been made aware of the issue, but colleagues may be aware of it. I will speak to officials and come back to the committee.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I come back to what I said in my opening statement. The strategy came out in 2021, and there was, at that particular point, no disagreement in that respect. Since I was made a minister a year ago, the board has met on, I think, two or three occasions, and obviously we regularly meet board members to discuss their own specific issues as well as broader matters.

Since 2021, we have had, as we have talked about, the pandemic as well as the cost of living crisis. There has been an impact; indeed, we have seen the impact on Scotland. The Office for National Statistics has said that, in the UK, around about one and a half million workers have been lost, and obviously, the construction sector will have been part of that. It means that, in Scotland, you would be talking about 150,000-ish people; again, that is just an estimate based on the share of the population. There has been an impact in that respect.

Construction inflation, too, has had a real impact. On my visits last summer, I was told that contracts might be there for a day or two, and then the prices had to change. Anecdotally, I have heard from speaking to developers that things have slowed down a little bit, but inflation is still high, and we have obviously had the cut to the capital budget.

The key point is that the situation has changed since the strategy was first set. The objectives are still there: we have set the 110,000 new homes target, and the review planned for 2026-27 has been brought forward to now. Work is on-going on that and the logistics are being worked out at the moment. As I have said publicly and will continue to say, the deliverability of all that is being reviewed and the stakeholders involved in the housing to 2040 strategy will be included. Indeed, we have said as much to them. The review will be carried out not just by Government but by stakeholders themselves, which I think is incredibly important.

I will bring in Joe Brown in a second to talk about the review, but I think that the issue of deliverability is really important. Things have changed; in fact, they have changed significantly from when the strategy came out. I do not think that anybody can say that they have not.

I want to come back to a couple of other issues with regard to what we do as we move forward, but I will bring in Joe Brown to talk about the deliverability review, what is happening in that respect, how it will work and how it will report back, and to give you a little bit more detail on how it will be worked on operationally, if that is okay.

10:30  

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I am happy to come back and discuss the report when it comes out, but we are very much taking an inclusive approach. Indeed, that is an important part of the review, because it means that it is not just the Scottish Government that is looking at this, but the stakeholders. As I have said, I am happy to come back to the committee at any point to discuss that.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

I apologise. We are continuing to discuss what the indicators should be in that respect, and, again, I am happy to come back to the committee on that. Discussions are on-going.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Building Safety and Maintenance and Housing to 2040

Meeting date: 16 April 2024

Paul McLennan

No—it will probably be before then. I do not want to commit to anything, as discussions are on-going, but I think that it would be before then.