Seòmar agus comataidhean

Amendment 7 would require a sheriff to appoint a panel of technical experts with knowledge and experience of remediation work and take into account their views when making a decision on an appeal.

I recognise the positive intent of Graham Simpson’s amendment as, often, matters may be technical and expert advice might assist the court. However, appeals under section 10 would carry a great degree of urgency, as they would be brought forward in cases in which a single building assessment, which was produced by appropriately qualified professionals, had identified the need to act promptly to eliminate or mitigate risks to human life. A requirement to appoint a panel of experts would almost invariably add to the time that it takes for a court to consider an appeal in what may be life-critical matters.

That is not to say that there is no role for technical experts in some cases, and parties may instruct their own expert witnesses. However, it is not proportionate to require a sheriff to nominate a panel in every case, and I would have concerns about the impact of amendment 7 on judicial independence and on the court’s ability to deal with cases as it sees fit.

The Government’s informal engagement with the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service, ahead of stage 2, suggests that it shares at least some of those concerns. In addition, how the arrangements would work in practice is unclear, and there are questions about the cost, size and composition of the panel—including whether the membership was agreeable to both parties, for example—as well as the impact on court rules.

For those reasons, I ask Graham Simpson not to press amendment 7. If the amendment is pressed, I ask the committee to reject it.

In general, the Government would consider that. At the moment, it is looking at the issues in two or three different ways. We talked about the role of the housing regulator on issues of damp and mould and our work on that with the Association of Local Authority Chief Housing Officers. When we look at damp and mould, we need to cover social housing and private housing—that is an element to consider.

Things are still emerging in relation to the RAAC issue. We talked about Aberdeen, for example, and there is the work of the RAAC cross-sector working group. We are engaging with that work and we are continuing discussions with Aberdeen City Council and other local authorities.

I will be honest: the picture is mixed. One of the key points with regard to local housing is the housing needs and demand assessment process, which looks at the requirements. With local housing strategies, what is important is how broad and far-reaching they are. A local housing strategy is not simply about housing itself and where to deliver houses—it is about adaptations and repairs, and it should also include looking at the retrofitting agenda and where that fits in.

A key thing that has emerged for me when speaking to local authorities in the past year is that there is always a need to look for more housing for elderly people. I remember meeting an organisation for extra care housing. There are figures from the Office for National Statistics showing that, in the United Kingdom, there are about 15 million bedrooms sitting spare. If we take Scotland’s share of the population, we are talking about between 1 million and 1.5 million bedrooms sitting spare in Scotland at the moment. Is there an opportunity for elderly people who might be staying in a big house to move into other housing? I know that local authorities have had incentives before and they have got people moving. That is a market that needs to be developed. We have had discussions with care providers about that, and we have a round-table meeting with Maree Todd coming up to talk about how we can look at extra care housing and what kind of funding there is for that.

We are talking about approximately 1 million and 1.5 million bedrooms in Scotland that are lying spare. I know that you are talking about the broader housing situation, but that is where the local housing strategy needs to be as broad and as far-reaching as possible. Those are the kinds of discussions that we are having with each local authority. They are all slightly different, because the situation in the Western Isles is a wee bit different from that in Glasgow, for example. That is where the local housing strategies need to go into a little more depth, and we can work on that in our discussions with local authorities, as well as through local teams discussing the issues with them.

Do you mean what actions have we taken in terms of emissions?

Pam Gosal indicated agreement.

Obviously, new-build standards have come in, which is an important step in relation to where we are with new houses. We are now starting to see those, and I have had discussions with developers who welcome that. We have to ensure that those standards continue to evolve as different technologies come forward. I know that that is being looked at.

Work on damp and mould depends on whether the matter sits with local authorities or the private rented sector. This is where the role of the Scottish Housing Regulator comes in. I know that it has written to the committee directly about Scottish social housing charter indicators. One of the key things that the regulator is talking about, in engaging with the sector, is developing an appropriate monitoring system. That is really important for knowing what impact the issue is having. Again, ALACHO has an important role to play in relation to social landlords, while the regulator has an overview. After Covid, a note was put out on damp and mould to all social housing practitioners. That was in February last year, and four leading housing organisations sent a wee note out on that.

I go back to the figures that I gave at the start of the meeting, showing that there have been no increases in the levels of condensation or mould, but we need to make sure that we are working on what to do going forward. You read some discussions saying that damp and mould are about tenants’ behaviours, but they are not. It is important that tenants look after their properties, but this is about making sure that the properties are properly looked after. It comes back to the point that Stephanie Callaghan made about ensuring that local authorities have effective schemes in place. The regulator has the ability to speak to local authorities about how they deal with damp and mould and I know that it has done that for Edinburgh, for example. We work closely with the housing regulator and the issue is always raised in the discussions that I have with it.

Obviously, there is a complaints procedure, but working closely with the housing regulator is the important part. There is a report mechanism. As I said, the housing regulator wrote to Edinburgh about how it dealt with damp and mould in its properties. It is about people working closely with the regulator and with ALACHO. It comes back to the condition of the properties and how they are looked after, which comes back to how authorities deal with that in their local housing strategies and what they are spending on that work.

Data is incredibly important. What levels of damp and mould are there? Each local authority can monitor that and do the piece of work on it. When I meet people from the City of Edinburgh Council, for example, we discuss damp and mould and how it is dealing with that.

This is a broad area, but the regulator very much has a role to play and ALACHO, for the local authorities, is keen to work with it. It comes back to how local authorities look after their stock. As for private landlords, there have been discussions with the regulator and the Scottish Association of Landlords, and guidance has been given to private landlords on how they deal with damp and mould in their properties.

That goes back to what I was saying previously. I mentioned the briefing note that was sent out, and the Scottish Housing Regulator plays its part. A real focus was applied after Covid, as it was not possible to inspect properties during Covid, for obvious reasons. That has been picked up on with regard to the backlog. It is a matter of working with the regulator, with ALACHO and with individual local authorities. The Housing Regulator has the power to write to the City of Edinburgh Council or other local authorities, as it has in the past, to ask them what they are doing.

We will continue to work with the Scottish Association of Landlords, which is developing a more robust guidance scheme for tenants, as we have discussed. We should ensure that the guidance is out there. It covers all tenures, not just social housing; it addresses housing associations and working with private landlords, too. It is also a matter of ensuring that we have the data, and the Scottish Association of Landlords should speak to its members to ensure that they are following the guidance.

Yes, very much so.

The data is a piece of work that we need to look at in a little more detail across the housing sector. Again, it comes back to the work of the Scottish Housing Regulator in relation to what data it collects and how it uses its influence across Scotland. We have discussed that issue with COSLA. The housing to 2040 group—I know that we will touch on it later—has also talked more broadly about the use of data. A review group is looking at the data, and that is one of the issues that needs to be looked at. If you are referring purely to data on the housing repairing standard, a wee piece of work needs to be done on how we look at that and I would be keen to see that work. The situation is mixed across different local authorities and we need to develop that a bit further to understand it. It comes back to the damp and mould issue, for example. The Scottish Housing Regulator has the ability to write to the City of Edinburgh Council and other local authorities and say, “What is your data collection like?” and, “What are you doing around that?” That needs to be monitored on an on-going basis all the time. We need to progress that with the housing to 2040 group, COSLA and ALACHO.

Previously, you mentioned going back to the 1970s. I cannot comment on what went on in the 1970s and what programmes were in place. The convener mentioned at the outset that carrying out building MOTs is an important part of it. As matters continue to evolve through the discussions about RAAC and cladding, there needs to be a broader overview and a broader consultation.

You mentioned the work that the Scottish Housing Regulator is doing. That is probably about where RAAC has been identified. Where a number of houses with RAAC have been identified—in Aberdeen, for example, as was mentioned before—a more detailed piece of work needs to be done on what their situation is actually like. Aberdeen City Council is currently going through that work with all the affected residents. It is having one-to-one discussions with residents about what their options are, what their situation is and what condition surveys have been carried out on the properties. That work, which is being done with the Scottish Housing Regulator, continues to evolve, and we discuss it regularly with the regulator.

It then comes back to what comes out of those more detailed pieces of work, such as those being done in Aberdeen city and Clackmannanshire, and what that looks like going forward. A key thing is that, last year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated that the Government would “spend what it takes” to deal with RAAC, but so far no funding has been identified, including in the recent budget, so we need to see what comes out of that work to identify the requirements that Aberdeen City and Clackmannanshire have. We are not at that place yet. Those matters will be raised with the councils, and they have already said that they will discuss it with us when they get to the options appraisals and what the situation actually looks like.

There are a number of key issues in addition to that. One is about insurance. When the Aberdeen issue came up, we had a discussion with the Association of British Insurers about it. While insurance will not cover RAAC, properties will continue to be insured.

The other key issue involved talking to UK Finance about how it is dealing with the situation with private owners and what that situation will be going forward. UK Finance is in discussions with us and with local authorities on advising residents on what they need to do at this stage. Also, as I said, there will be discussions with Aberdeen City Council on its longer-term options appraisal, which will include private residents and social tenants. That piece of work is still on-going. We get a weekly update from Aberdeen on the number of discussions that it has had and what it is trying to do. We will have more detailed discussions with the council when it gets to the situation around the options appraisal and what that looks like, and any specific help from us would be highlighted at that time. We are not at that position yet, but I am happy to come back to the committee when more detail comes forward.

We are working closely with the regulator to do that. As the committee can understand, it is a big piece of work to try to identify that right across Scotland.

The Scottish house condition survey showed that 1.91 million homes in Scotland—75 per cent—were fully compliant, but about 25 per cent, or 638,000 homes, were recorded as not having satisfactory equipment for detecting fire. In the social rented sector, about 6 per cent of homes, or 38,000, were recorded as not having such satisfactory equipment. That survey was carried out in 2022, and physical surveys were also carried out between April 2022 and March 2023. We have probably seen more progress since then, but they were the figures from the latest Scottish house condition survey.

Discussions are on-going with local authorities about what they need to do to move forward more broadly. I think that the figures that I gave for compliance have probably increased, and I hope that the next house condition survey will show an increase.