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It would depend on each local authority’s process. Each local authority will have slightly different ways of dealing with that. Having been a councillor for 15 years, I was involved in such cases and know that there are differences in the approaches that are taken. This is probably more to do with the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee, but I remember that committee taking some evidence on how community planning worked. There is a mixed process across Scotland in relation to housing and homelessness. For example, sometimes it was not even involved in the council’s broader community planning group or even in thematic groups. Part of the experience would be working with COSLA on how that works, because different local authorities have different approaches. That is a key point.

I talked earlier about why we have 10 ministers on the ministerial oversight group. In some of the more complex homelessness cases, four or five specialist areas can be involved. [Paul McLennan has corrected this contribution. See end of report.] A case could concern somebody who has suffered domestic abuse and mental health issues, which has led on to substance abuse, so there can be a range of measures.

Your point about ensuring that there is flow-through is important. I will pick up with COSLA how it will take that forward, because it is important to ensure that we get that flow from one part of the system right the way through. Blockages prevent people moving where they need to, getting temporary accommodation and moving on to more permanent accommodation.

I will pick up that point with stakeholders over the summer.

I will bring in Pamela McBride on that particular point. For me, with the two months or six months, it could be a day or two on either side, because cases will not involve just the six months—we know that it does not work in that way. I will bring in Pamela McBride on the point about the wording but, within reason, there is always a degree of flexibility when it comes to the two months or six months. Cases do not work in that way, unfortunately.

Pam, do you want to touch on the point about the wording?

That will be a worthwhile visit. I have been to a cook school event, and I was asked to prepare a bit of a meal, so be prepared for that. The Cyrenians do an absolutely incredible job, as many people know. I whole-heartedly commend the work that they do.

That is an important part of the legislation. We have engaged with stakeholders such as Scottish Women’s Aid, and we are aware of the legislation that is already in place. There is also the question of what the guidance actually looks like.

I had experience of a case, and I am sure that we have all had such experiences regarding domestic abuse cases. A woman will arrive at a surgery and does not know what the situation is. We are trying to prevent that from arising in the first place. For example, I was down in the Borders about three or four months ago and some housing associations down there had set up a project. I met a women there who had suffered domestic abuse. It was very much a prevention duty that was being considered, and the housing associations had specific housing officers who had done training on how to deal with such situations. They worked closely with Scottish Women’s Aid, and they considered how to deal with the financial situation that women found themselves in. That was an example of really good work, and it was a lesson for us all to learn from.

I was at one particular meeting that has stuck with me. The event was arranged by Scottish Women’s Aid, and one woman there had been in a particular situation. We were all asked to stand up. There was a piece of string that started with the woman who, it was found, had been suffering from domestic abuse. It was passed around the various organisations that she would have to work with before she got temporary accommodation. There were 30 people involved in the process for one domestic abuse case. Suffering the domestic abuse was traumatic enough; her having to go through 20 or 30 different organisations highlighted the longer-term issue not just for the woman but for her family.

How we simplify the process is a really important subject for me. That will come through the statutory guidance, and we are working with Scottish Women’s Aid on that as part of the training. One key thing that we identified previously and that we have been piloting is the fund to leave, which gives women financial opportunities to get some funding to leave. It is not just about domestic abuse; it is about financial abuse and other things, too. It is a matter of working closely with organisations such as Scottish Women’s Aid, incorporating the existing legislation and ensuring that it is embedded. Becoming homeless is a really difficult situation, but there are so many issues behind it and it is important that we get that work right. As I say, we are working closely with Scottish Women’s Aid and other organisations on that.

Returning to the point that I made about the Borders housing associations, the work that they did, including on prevention duties right at the start, was really important, as was their method. They had evidence to show how their project had worked and was making a difference. I spoke to a few women who had suffered and who had worked with the housing associations down there, and we were delighted with how that had made a difference in the women’s lives. We have to work really closely in embedding that legislation. As we know, domestic abuse is the biggest cause of homelessness for women. That is a really important part of our work, which we need to get right. I do not know whether Pamela McBride wants to add a wee bit on that. We have been working closely in developing the guidance.

No. Again, it comes back to the point about housing officers and how they deal with domestic abuse. I have had individual cases, as all members probably have, of people who are suffering domestic abuse. They will go to one housing officer, and the housing officer will have had training and guidance and knows how to deal with it. However, I have had other cases in which a woman has gone to a housing officer and, quite frankly, it has felt almost as though they have been dismissed and that the abuse has been seen as being of no relevance. The vast majority of the time, it is the woman who moves out of the home, despite the fact that it is the perpetrator who has caused the situation. Again, I think that that takes us back to the point about statutory guidance and training—and also culture. That demonstrates the need for the training aspect for housing officers, because the picture is very mixed.

We cannot have the situation in which how you are treated literally depends on which housing officer you get, because that can have an influence all the way through the process. I have seen good examples where the response has made a real difference, but I have seen bad examples where the response has further exacerbated the problem and brought mental health issues and so on into the mix. Therefore, we need to ensure that the existing legislation is embedded.

However, there is a lot of work to be done on that particular point with regard to what we are trying to do around the prevention duties. It comes back to the need to legislate for that and ensure that it is picked up. Again, it comes back to the point that you mentioned: a woman might try to leave seven times before she actually leaves. Part of that is the thought of, “If I leave, what next?”. We cannot have women going into that situation and then thinking, “What next?”, because that impacts on her and on her children, and that impact can remain for a long time.

Therefore, we need to make sure that we change that. That comes back to the point about prevention duties and what we can do if we identify the issues at a much earlier stage. I will go back to the example that I gave from the Borders, where they were very clear in the training about what advice was available, so it was all part of the process. It cannot just come down to what happens when a woman turns up to see a housing officer to deal with the issue, because that will not work and that response has a real on-going impact.

There are several things. We are talking about resources, which is incredibly important. I touched on the fact that there are 32 different local authorities with 32 different solutions. The situation in island communities will be different from that in urban Glasgow, for example, and we must recognise that that is the case.

The resourcing for island communities must be right. Part of the work that we did with COSLA identified that. It is really important and is something that we must be cognisant of because it will need a different approach. If you are talking about involving six, seven or eight organisations in one case, that is much easier to do in Glasgow than it would be in parts of rural Scotland. Financial resourcing is important, but physical resourcing and knowing how many people are required is important too. Island communities and the local authorities that deal with that have responded on that particular point and we are cognisant of that. The resourcing and financial implications will be picked up, as will training.

We need to consider how we ensure that training is in place, as we have to be aware that that will be much more difficult in rural communities than in Glasgow. Organisations have shared that view, but we are also talking to people with lived experience.

Parts of the Borders can be quite rural. I have done some work on a project in the region, and the team were cognisant of how people access their services. Advice cannot always be given face to face, so they have considered how to ensure that there is access to the services that people require. We should not only talk about how practitioners deal with those things but look at it from the perspective of someone who has experienced domestic abuse, for example. Lessons have been learned from how four housing associations in the Borders operate, and there are other lessons that can be learned from best practice. It is really important that we look at it from the point of view of a person who could become homeless, which is reflected in the evidence that we received from rural communities and local authorities.

We have to get the resources right so that we can ensure that, anywhere in Scotland, there is access to the services that are required. We need to ensure that it is not more difficult for someone to access services because of where they live. Someone in a rural area should not face more difficulty than someone who lives in urban Glasgow, who might be half a mile away from a place that they could visit in person. It does not matter whether someone lives in Glasgow or in rural Scotland; it is important that we deal with the challenges they face. How practitioners deal with a situation and how people access services will be different, but people cannot suffer because of where they live. Local authorities have identified that and have given feedback to us on that process.

That is a very good question, and I will come on to it in a wee second. I did not have the pleasure of meeting Marion Gibbs, but I have heard her name mentioned on numerous occasions, always very supportively, given the work that she did. It is important to mention that.

You are right about the culture, Mr Stewart. At the moment, we are building on what we have, which is the requirement to act within two months. In my experience as a councillor—you will know this, too, given your background—the way in which that was picked up could sometimes depend on which housing officer a person had within the local authority. We need to improve on that. There is a culture within each local authority, and we are working closely with COSLA to ensure that we get that message across to councils.

When it comes to other stakeholders, in talking to people across different parts of Scotland, it was important to talk about interaction with health boards and other organisations and how we make sure that every part of the system flows all the way through. When a person is dealt with, a bottleneck can be reached at a certain point, and it is important to deal with that. The key things with the ask and act duty are to ensure that we have that flow-through and that everybody plays their part in it. As we have touched on before, the ask and act duty should not just end up back with the council housing department for it to deal with. There is a legislative part to the duty, but it is also about working closely with stakeholders on what is expected of them and the difference that that can make.

I imagine that culture will be the most difficult part. We have had chats about that. It needs to be embedded throughout each local authority and each local stakeholder. I will engage with stakeholders over the summer, and I will touch on the point about how we change the culture. In the past year and a half or two years, we have probably seen more focus on the impact of housing on people’s health and welfare. An important element is to make sure that we engage with stakeholders and that this is embedded across all of them.

The difficult part is changing the culture of an organisation, so, when I speak to and engage with stakeholders, I will be trying to understand how they can change their organisation’s culture. That will be the most difficult part, but we need the culture change to make sure that we prevent as many people as we can from becoming homeless.

Part of that comes back to community planning, although it is almost outwith the remit of the bill. It is about how local authorities set up their community planning frameworks so that housing and homelessness are included. That could be done through local authorities’ community planning partnerships or a thematic group. The Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee has heard mixed views on that. We can enact legislation, but the way that local authorities and, more broadly, community planning partners take part in the process is important. It feeds into the point about how we tackle the issues, because the closer that the partnership between local authorities and communities is, the easier it will be to make sure that these things work.

I will ask Catriona MacKean to come in on that. I will write to the committee and will speak to the relevant minister about it. You are right in saying that the provisions in the 2021 act need to be in force in order to help us to do what we need to do. Scottish Women’s Aid has also raised that point with us.

Can you clarify whether Shelter was referring to the broader housing system or the homelessness system specifically?