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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 31 March 2025
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Displaying 1482 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

New Deal for Business

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

We understand that. I want to follow up on the point about cascading within the siloed, complex and ever-shifting organisation that is Government. Beyond the process elements that you outlined, such as business and regulatory impact assessments, and in relation to embedding that depth of leadership, to what extent will directors general be measured and rewarded—or otherwise—based on not just following process but continuing to drive the cultural shift down through their direct reports?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

New Deal for Business

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

Thank you for indulging me, Mr Fraser.

Deputy First Minister, I am heartened to hear what you have to say about a change in culture and the use of that term. You make a bold statement, because culture is extraordinarily difficult to change and it takes sustained intensive effort. We have already touched on silos, which would be the obvious issue. How do we work on that? We have had some evidence on that.

Given your limited capacity—you have a huge remit—what is your plan to ensure that the focus is sustained and cascaded through the depths of Government? What measures have been put in place to ensure that economic growth and all that it enables stay at the top of the agenda?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

New Deal for Business

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

Because we would not have believed you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

This is where I am coming from. You mentioned the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992, and I think that you recognise that there is an obligation to meet those regulations over and above the Equality Act 2010. You have referred to the fact that those regulations state that there must be “separate” toilet facilities “for men and women” except where each toilet is in a separate room lockable from the inside, and separate changing rooms where needed “for reasons of propriety”.

Are you completely 100 per cent comfortable that you are working within the 1992 regulations? Indeed, it might be useful for us to know how many of the facilities meet the requirements of those regulations, relative to the number of women in the civil service. Are you completely certain that you are meeting the 1992 regulations, which require that each toilet is in a separate room that is lockable from the inside?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

So, the only facilities that provide a reliable alternative to de facto mixed-sex provision are fairly limited, by definition—

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

Are you reassessing your legal advice just now, in the light of the number of cases that are coming out of public bodies, to ensure that the employment law element of it is absolutely on point? Are you actively doing that at the moment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I see that there is clearly the potential for tension in relation to the elected role of ministers.

You will know that the civil service’s total operating costs have routinely been overspent by around 10 per cent in recent years. If ministers have limited potential to do something about that—it is a dialogue-type situation—but you retain ultimate accountability, that would seem to be a problem.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I have questions relating to the Scottish Government’s responsibilities as an employer and potential exposure to costly legal action. It cannot have escaped your notice that quite a few—the list is piling up—public bodies are falling foul of overreach on gender self-identification, despite that not being the law.

I have a quick yes or no question first. I assume that you have overall responsibility for ensuring that the Scottish Government, as an employer, complies with the law.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

Is it in the public domain that the women’s development network allows men to self-identify as women?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I have actual examples—I could perhaps help you if you cannot think of any. Might you be forgetting about changing rooms and toilets, Lesley, which you referenced? The trans and non-binary equality and inclusion policy, most recently re-issued in 2023, states that

“trans staff should choose to use the facilities they feel most comfortable with”—

in other words, that they self-identify into. Do you accept that that means that any facilities—for example, changing rooms and toilets—that are stated as being for women only in the Scottish Government are therefore, in practice, mixed sex?