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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 April 2025
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Displaying 1482 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

Thank you. I look forward to hearing more about that as part of the reflection process.

I have a slightly different question, which picks up on some of the threads that the convener pursued. I cannot imagine that many members of the public are watching these proceedings, but I am sure that members of various bodies will be doing so. I do not think that the challenges and complexities that exist in aligning budgetary spend with outcomes are generally understood. It is a highly complex and difficult process.

Could you give us a flavour of those areas in which you think that that is difficult to do in practical terms? An example that is often cited is our use—globally, I mean—of the crude measurement, thus far, of GDP, as opposed to wellbeing indices. In reflecting on that at some point in the future, might the Scottish Government look to adopt more forcefully some of the newer, softer measures around wellbeing that have emerged recently, rather than looking only at hard measures such as GDP? I realise that that is a complex question, but I would like to hear your reflections on it.

10:00  

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

Bryan McGrath, what is your approach on women in place and women in their place in terms of their making a full contribution?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

Without my leading you, it sounds like you are almost promising me that you will reflect on that as you develop your women’s strategy.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

That probably leads on to my next question. When Carolyn Currie from Women’s Enterprise Scotland was before us, she made an interesting comment about what constitutes a microbusiness based on our traditional measures. She mentioned that she is aware of a number of women-led businesses that are, in essence, microbusinesses but that have significant turnover. It is very often the case that agencies will not pick up such businesses because there is a threshold for support in relation to employee numbers. Of course, where their turnover is significant, they are typically using e-commerce as a mechanism to trade, which is something else that we want to encourage.

Are you aware of that? Have you reflected how—almost back to front—e-commerce can skew the number of employees against turnover? That breaks the usual measures that we might choose to adopt? Have you considered that in terms of women-led businesses specifically?

10:30  

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

That is a very honest answer.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

I am mindful of what Bryan McGrath has been emphasising. I want to ask a couple of questions about women in enterprise in the concept of place, as well as in their place—that is, as thriving, active entrepreneurs in which an equitable number of women and men in businesses contribute. Do you have a strategy for women in enterprise in your organisation? Do you routinely disaggregate data by women? How do you measure that? Do you publish that strategy and data? I am after a bit of flavour on that. If you do not have a strategy, just tell me. Derek Shaw is smiling—you can go first.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

Do you have a specific strategy for women, or is consideration and cognisance of women part of your overarching strategy?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

In that case, are you saying that it can be argued that proxy measures are, if they are applied consistently across the board, better than nothing at all? I do not want to put words in your mouth, but that is what I took from what you were saying.

11:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

I agree with what you said about the human rights element, which will give a different perspective that should be enlightening. My question is, to what extent is the NPF already not gender blind, but fully aware at every step and every measure. I appreciate that this is a huge question to ask, but in general terms, what assessment—red, amber or green—would you give it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Michelle Thomson

It is a very interesting area but I will move on, as it is quite a big area, too.

This is my final question. In this evidence session and in others, we have touched on the lack of linkage to budget planning. My observation is that the means of measuring wellbeing in economic terms are still relatively underdeveloped—academics such as Rutger Hoekstra, the author of “Replacing GDP by 2030”, are still puzzling over that. Is the real issue the fact that our adherence to gross domestic product—because it gives firmer measures—makes it difficult to measure wellbeing and link it to economic activity, and therefore to the budget? Is that the real challenge, which we have to accept is difficult and have to keep working on?