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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 April 2025
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Displaying 1482 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I will try to be brief. I have a couple of questions. In your submission, you mention wider adoption of shared services and correctly note that that will need increased resources and time to take effect. It also needs appetite. Can you help me to understand the standard functions that are normally part of shared services—that is, finance, HR and IT? Are there any genuinely shared services across all 32 local councils?

17:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I get why that is the case. Have there been terms of reference for the review?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I have seen the document that was published in May.

To go back to your point, Kirsty Flanagan, sometimes we see facilities management, for example, being part of a shared services function. I accept what you said about the disparate geography of Argyll and Bute, but you have also pointed out that there is a lack of appetite across councils in respect of replicated functions—for example, finance directors, IT, HR and the specialisms. In any other commercial walk of life—I spent some time in commerce in a previous life—there is no way that there would be duplicated functions across the board. Hence my comment about appetite. On the one hand, councils complain about not having any money; on the other hand, it is clear that that is an area that should be looked at, as there are duplicated functions across 32 councils.

That is the point that I am trying to make, although I accept that there is the time issue and a cost.

I want to ask Kirsty Flanagan one more question. It is a bit of a technical question, so I hope that we can deal with it quite quickly.

You made a point in the submission about capital accounting. I know that that has been rumbling about for some time. Obviously, there are concerns about the planned review, but what was the driver for the concern? That issue has been raised a number of times, and something is now being done about it—it is being looked at. Surely a potential outcome is a positive one. I want to understand where your concerns are coming from and the assumption that the result could end up less favourable for councils.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I will not labour the point, because I am conscious of the time; however, I am just not clear why you think that that will automatically happen. That is what I am querying.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I go back to your point about the immediacy of the crises from which we are lurching. We have had several: we have had Brexit and Covid and we have a cost of living crisis. In addition, there are the up-front costs, which you clearly pointed out, before we get the benefits—if they are financial benefits. Does that work to inhibit structural change? Does short-termism always win the day, or is the possibility that it wins the day increased?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good afternoon. Thank you for coming along today.

I will ask the Auditor General a question first. In your submission, you said that the resource spending review

“notes that there are ... 129 public bodies in Scotland”.

You quite coyly comment that

“structural reform ... can take time to achieve and generate short-term costs.”

I also note your point about service delivery and outcomes.

With regard to the typical time-cost quality of any change, you have not given any indication of the potential for cost savings. From an audit perspective, how does our having 129 public bodies compare with the situation in other countries? I realise that this is a difficult question, and I accept what you said earlier, but, by head of population or some other appropriate measure, do we have far too many public bodies, and should we have fewer?

16:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Everybody is looking at you, Paul.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Sorry to interrupt. I understand that, but I am trying to understand the basis for your concern that that might change. Surely there could also be potential for a positive outcome. The overarching review has been triggered by your lack of fiscal flexibilities. From your submission, I am not clear why you are concerned or what evidence you are offering to back up that concern. Has there been any indication from the Government that that is the intended way to go? I am not clear about that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

That would be helpful, and I know that you will carefully qualify any data that you provide.

Are you aware of any overlap of outcomes that might lend themselves to consideration for streamlining from an audit perspective? Perhaps I should ask when you last audited the 129 bodies’ effectiveness across the board.