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That is helpful. I acknowledge that it is hard to pin down the scale, but, if trans people could gain access to a gender recognition certificate more easily than they can now, would that be helpful with regard to our data overall?

I thank the panel for coming along. Richy Edwards’s witness statement in particular was extremely powerful and really helpful. We cannot overestimate the power of lived experience in making and shaping law.

In determining how all this might fit with the criminal law in Scotland, you recommended criminalisation, which you have spoken about. How do you see that working in practice in relation to parents, medical professionals and faith leaders?

That is really helpful—thank you.

I would like to add to my initial question. Dr Crowther, you spoke earlier about how we are still very much in a society where being cisgendered and heteronormative is seen as the default setting for human beings. It is quite hard for people to break through that narrative. Richy Edwards spoke about there being a ripple effect, which harms not only the individual concerned but the whole of society. If conversion practices were to be made a criminal offence, would it be helpful in changing such mindsets so that there could be good, positive ripple effects?

That is helpful—thank you.

That is really helpful—thank you.

Thank you for bringing the petition to the committee. I am excited about being able to talk about a sign language. It is really important to note that, as you stressed, BSL is different from Makaton. I was brought up bilingual, so to speak, because my dad was deaf. I was brought up to be quite fluent in BSL, so I know the difference. BSL is a full and complete language in itself, whereas Makaton has a sign per word for someone who may already understand English or spoken language.

I have seen the communication difficulties for people who use sign language in any form and I know how incredibly frustrating they can be. There are different signs for different words, which is why it is important to have an interpreter who knows how someone uses the signs. There is some crossover with the idea of understanding. I completely get where you are coming from: communication is vitally important.

It was interesting that you brought up the signs for who, what, where and when. I always add why and how. We have who, what, where, when, why and how. When someone can make the signs for those words, as I have just done, they can begin to open up and really communicate with another individual.

The point about communication is key to the evidence that you are giving today, particularly when it comes to the justice system, because in that case we are talking about people who are already in a vulnerable position. Statistically, they are more likely to be taken advantage of, which is why it is so important that we get the communication right.

I am saying all this because I want you to know that I really understand where you are coming from. I have seen somebody with a learning difficulty start to use Makaton and it made a massive difference in their life. I could see it in their demeanour and how they could express themselves. Just to be able to show that they wanted something to eat, for example, made a massive difference.

We are focusing on communication in the justice system. Are there any other areas that you think should be opened up through use of Makaton or do you want to focus only on the justice aspect?

That is really helpful. What you have said makes me think that it would be good to keep some documentation of the signs that a person uses. We had a wee document passed to us today that shows us some signs. I was just thinking that I sign my name by pointing to my cheek, because I have a dimple, but those things are quite individual even in families or households. We also have regional sign language—I talk mostly Doric BSL—so I completely get your point, and that has opened up another aspect.

Good morning. I will follow on from what we have just been discussing. Jim Farish talked about people understanding their rights, and Eilidh Dickson talked about people generally knowing what human rights are and how they interact. In his opening statement, Ian Duddy, said that training is one of the commission’s remits. What does that training look like? Who does it apply to? For the benefit of the committee, how do you roll out that training?

That is interesting. It is crucial that people understand how the issue of human rights interacts with all policy and legislation. I remember that, when I was a councillor, we would read through reports, at the end of which would be a section on the equality impact assessment. It seems as though that approach should be flipped on its head and human rights should be a foundation of the approach to many things.

How crucial is it that all committees, not just the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, put human rights at the foundation of their policy making and scrutiny?

In relation to the impacts of Covid, I was struck by what you said about people’s ability to access resources locally. People might not think that the Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, for example, would have any obligation to underpin human rights, but rurality is a hot topic in the context of the debate about our neighbourhoods and people’s ability to access healthcare, for example. It is really interesting to hear your testimony on that.