Official Report 1071KB pdf
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15612, in the name of Claire Baker, on tackling abuse of bus drivers.
I invite those members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak button. I take this opportunity to advise members that the criminal matter that is referred to in the motion for debate is subject to the sub judice rule. Therefore, members should refrain from making reference to the specifics of the case.
16:08
I draw attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests and my membership of Unite the union.
I send our deepest condolences to the family of Keith Rollinson. Everyone should be safe and respected at their place of work, and no one should have to endure abuse and violence in the workplace. I want to be clear that violence is never acceptable. It is a criminal matter and it should always be treated as such.
There was public shock at the attack on Keith Rollinson, and it has been sobering to read the survey of bus drivers from Unite the union, which highlights that violence, abuse and sexual harassment are not isolated incidents on buses but are frequent occurrences that are not being taken seriously.
Bus drivers are facing unacceptable health and safety risks, including verbal and physical assault, which are carried out by a minority of people, of all ages, travelling on buses. However, evidence suggests that that has been exacerbated by the extension of the concessionary travel scheme to people under the age of 22.
I emphasise that we support the young person’s bus pass and recognise the significant benefits that it is delivering. It is enabling young people to access education and employment, encouraging a modal shift in transport and leading to investment in bus services. The behaviour of a minority of passengers should not impact on the success of the scheme, but we must not be complacent or ignore the impact of antisocial behaviour on our bus drivers.
Unite the union has conducted a survey of its members. The figures are sobering, revealing historically high levels of abuse and major concerns about safety on public transport. Of the respondents, 84 per cent said that abuse at work had increased in the past 12 months. Of those experiencing abuse, 83 per cent reported verbal abuse and 16 per cent reported physical abuse. The low level of reporting is worrying: 79 per cent of the abuse was not reported to the police, while almost half did not report it to their employers. Of those who did, the majority were dissatisfied with the employer response. The lack of reporting devalues the abuse that is taking place. I thank Unite for undertaking the survey to show the extent of the problem. Finally, 51 per cent of bus drivers said that they do not feel safe at work, and 85 per cent said that they believe that it is now just part of the job. Abuse at work should never be just part of the job, and we must bring an end to this culture.
This is not the first debate on abuse of bus drivers. Almost a year ago, Graham Simpson led a members’ business debate on antisocial behaviour on buses, which came at the publication point of the evaluation report on the young person’s bus pass. Examples of aggression, intimidation and physical assault were highlighted in the chamber. When the case of an assault against a teenager was raised in the chamber in 2022, the then Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans, Keith Brown, said:
“I will raise the issue with those who are responsible for the bus pass scheme, to gather views on whether the option of withdrawing bus passes ... might present a solution.”—[Official Report, 26 October 2022; c 19-20.]
I wrote to the Government in March, following bus drivers in my region highlighting to me the conditions in which they were working. The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity, Jim Fairlie, said:
“Transport Scotland is continuing to look at what may be possible and appropriate in terms of providing a deterrent or sanction”.
I then wrote to Transport Scotland, which, in June, repeated that position.
This week, Transport Scotland has gone further in response to our calls for stronger action, saying:
“We are working ... to develop further sanctions”
including
“a process for temporary suspension of concessionary travel cards.”
We must see action now. Scottish Labour is clear that there have to be consequences for persistent abusive behaviour towards bus drivers and passengers. Aggressive and intimidating behaviour and vandalism are leading to the cancellation of bus services, which impacts on other passengers and increases costs to operators as buses are taken off service for repairs, and it negatively impacts on passenger numbers, because people—including young people, who are often the victims of assault and bullying connected to bus travel—choose not to travel by bus.
I remind the Scottish Government that we have seen little progress since the publication of a report that it commissioned into the safety of women and girls on public transport. If those recommendations were introduced, they would go some way towards addressing antisocial behaviour.
The report’s actions have been carried out. I hosted a summit on that with all relevant bus partners. If Claire Baker has not seen the actions that have taken place following that report, I am more than happy to send them to her.
My understanding is that more could be done from the previous report, such as improving lighting, staffing, reporting and training for staff. If that was implemented across the public sector in relation to transport, that would go some way towards supporting bus drivers.
Today, we call for swift action to address antisocial behaviour and violence towards bus drivers. Ultimately, that must include the removal of access to concessionary bus passes from individuals who repeatedly carry out antisocial behaviour, regardless of their age.
To be clear, does Claire Baker also support sanctions for fare-paying adult passengers who commit antisocial behaviour on our buses?
Yes, I certainly do. The last line of our motion does not make a distinction in relation to the age of the person who would be sanctioned for their behaviour on buses. The reasons why I cannot support the Green amendment is that it would remove the reference in the motion to increased incidence and would take out the option of removing bus passes.
Those actions are what we call on the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland to do today, and they must deliver a sanction scheme swiftly. I believe that they have the power to do so through the National Bus Travel Concession Scheme for Young Persons (Scotland) Order 2021 and that travel can be isolated from the card’s other uses.
In addition to that sanction, which would make clear that there are consequences for those who abuse the benefits of the concessionary bus pass scheme, we must see progress on other measures to tackle antisocial behaviour on and around public transport. Unite the union has issued a road map to safety, with 15 practical steps for operators to take. There are highly regarded operators and, quite frankly, there are those that need to take seriously their duty of care to their workers. We need to see wider use of driver protection screens, closed-circuit television, robust staff training, panic buttons and mechanisms to alert and engage the police. We need to ensure that local authorities and the police are resourced to increase the presence of community wardens and officers at hot spots for disruptive behaviour.
Unite also calls on the Government to consider the need for legislation to protect bus transport workers. We need to consider the effectiveness of current legislation and how we can ensure that workers are safe at work. I support Unite’s call for a public transport safety summit involving key stakeholders.
Next week, along with Sue Webber and Mark Ruskell, I am holding a round table with Unite and key stakeholders. I understand that Jim Fairlie, the Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity, is able to attend. I want people to go to that meeting with a strong statement that the Parliament recognises the threat and abuse that bus drivers are facing at work and that we will take action. I urge parties to support our motion at decision time.
I move,
That the Parliament is deeply grieved by the death of Keith Rollinson following an assault at his place of work; agrees that workplace abuse is not acceptable and notes the serious concerns raised about levels of abuse in the recent mass survey of bus drivers in Scotland, carried out by Unite the Union; supports the union’s campaign to improve driver safety, including its call for a public transport safety summit involving key stakeholders; calls on the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland to take swift action to address antisocial behaviour and violence towards bus drivers, including exploring the potential for legislative measures to protect transport workers against assault, threats and abuse; notes the increase in the rate of incidents following the extension of the bus travel scheme; supports fully the provision of free bus travel for young people and children aged under 22 and notes the multiple benefits that it brings, but acknowledges that this comes with responsibilities, and calls on the Scottish Government to remove access to concessionary bus passes from individuals who repeatedly carry out antisocial behaviour.
16:14
I associate myself with Claire Baker’s comments about the tragic death of Keith Rollinson. That was devastating, and our thoughts go out to his loved ones, friends and colleagues.
Bus services, when run well and in the public interest, have the power to unite our communities. They provide a social service for the vulnerable, a way for young people to get on in their lives and a great way to cut congestion and get the economy moving. However, valuing bus services means valuing the workers who run them. The crisis in bus driver recruitment has worsened the cycle of decline. In some cases, bus companies have blamed cancelled services and the withdrawal of whole routes on driver shortages.
We have to break that cycle of decline, and that starts by respecting and investing in the workforce. Competitive pay and improved terms and conditions are important, but it is clear that the working environment and the continued rise in antisocial behaviour also need to be tackled head on. Like Claire Baker, I commend the work of Unite the union and the survey of its bus driver members, which has helped us to understand the problems of abuse that they face day in, day out, particularly from the often unheard voices of women. The figures in the survey are shocking, with 84 per cent having experienced abuse over the past year and 85 per cent feeling that abuse is just part of the job.
Everybody has a right to feel safe at work. It is unacceptable that such abuse is taking place. Unite’s 15-point route map to safer buses, which was launched in February, provides a great starting point to address the problem. I hope that the Scottish Government can continue to use its convening power to make progress on all the recommendations, including consideration of whether the law at present is fit to protect all transport workers.
We should not lose sight of the fact that hundreds of millions of pounds are paid to mostly private bus operators every single year to deliver concessionary travel schemes. Payments to those companies must come with a responsibility on the companies to deliver a safe environment for drivers and passengers. Again, Unite’s route map spells out the changes that bus operators need to make, from having CCTV cameras on board to having well-maintained protective barriers and lockable cabs.
Will Mark Ruskell take an intervention?
If there is time in hand, I certainly will.
There is no time in hand. It is up to the member whether he wishes to absorb the intervention.
I will take a very brief intervention.
Mark Ruskell is right that employers absolutely have a responsibility to drivers, but do passengers not also have a responsibility to uphold the decent norms of behaviour and not abuse bus drivers?
Absolutely. That is enshrined in law and in the conditions of carriage, and I will come on to that.
I am shocked that many of the buses that we have in Scotland are in a poor state. There are buses in my region with leaking windows and broken heating, so I would not be surprised if enhanced safety and security measures and the investment that is needed in those are way down the priority list. The Unite survey found that 79 per cent of drivers have not reported abuse to the police and that 48 per cent have not reported it to their employer. That points to a culture in which workers believe that their concerns are unlikely to be acted on, which is unacceptable.
There needs to be better joint working on the ground between the police, bus operators, councils and other agencies to target those who routinely cause trouble at bus stations and on buses. It is clear that antisocial behaviour was on the rise before the introduction of free bus travel for the under-22s, but it is the case that the welcome increase in bus use has brought with it a very small minority who abuse workers and other passengers, including young people.
On social media, we see bus drivers being abused by people of all ages. There is racist and misogynistic abuse, with workers being spat at or punched. The people who do that are a tiny minority, and none of them should be allowed on buses. It is important that we have the ability to detect repeat offenders through CCTV and that we work to exclude them from bus services.
I welcome the fact that the Scottish Government has already hosted two summits on the issue and that the independent working group on antisocial behaviour will make more recommendations later this year. Let me be clear that nothing should be off the table, including concessionary card suspensions, but we need an approach that tackles the problem at the root. Bus operators must be able to uphold their conditions of carriage, which apply to all passengers, regardless of their age and whether they pay a fare or have a bus pass. Antisocial behaviour is unacceptable, full stop, and nobody should accept abuse as just part of the job. It is time that it ended.
I move amendment S6M-15612.1, to leave out from “; notes the increase” to end and insert:
“, alongside support for restrictions on all individuals who cause serious and repeated antisocial behaviour from accessing bus services, and further calls on bus operators to fully invest in measures to support the safety of transport workers and passengers, including on-board CCTV.”
16:20
I thank Claire Baker for highlighting this important issue.
Bus drivers are at the front line of delivery of vital public transport services. Our communities depend on them and, for the most part, greatly value them. I have the greatest sympathy for bus drivers, who can be at the sharp end of antisocial behaviour from a small minority. Antisocial behaviour is unacceptable in all contexts, and the concerning results of Unite’s survey of bus drivers highlight the negative effects on bus travel.
The Scottish Government takes the issue very seriously. We will support the motion, which broadly reflects the Government’s position, and I intend to relay the progress on each item.
No single approach or stakeholder can or will fix the problem. Police Scotland and local authorities lead on antisocial behaviour interventions, and local partnerships are often best placed to understand and resolve issues in their communities. The Government’s role is to provide partners with the powers and tools to do that, and that work is being progressed as a priority.
The Minister for Victims and Community Safety, who is in the chamber, has tasked an independent working group on antisocial behaviour to report by the end of the year. The group has gathered a wide range of evidence, including from bus operators and bus passenger representatives, and its report will improve our understanding of antisocial behaviour and provide insight into how a strategic approach to prevention remains relevant and core to today’s society.
Although bus operators can already restrict access to their services—including for fare-paying passengers—in line with their conditions of carriage, we continue to work closely with them and others to develop further options for addressing antisocial behaviour, through learning from our investment in travel safe teams and use of body-worn cameras on the rail network.
Much of the focus is on young people, but I must stress that a very small minority misuse the young persons free bus travel scheme. We are developing a behaviour code, with the intention that it will cover all passengers who have a concessionary bus pass. The vast majority of Scotland’s young people will have no hesitation in accepting the responsibility that accompanies their entitlement.
I understand that under Andy Burnham’s scheme in Manchester, people have to sign a code of conduct before they get access to a pass. Is the Government considering that option?
Yes, we are looking at that for all passengers who have a concessionary bus pass.
Perpetrators of antisocial behaviour can be of any age, and the basis of our support for the motion is that we are examining the legal means by which concessionary passes can be suspended for persistent antisocial behaviour by people of any age, as we announced last December.
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
I need to make progress. There is limited time in the debate.
Fairness and consistency must underpin that work. I recently met Unite to discuss its 15-point safety plan, and I note that calls for a public transport safety summit have been made by the United Kingdom general secretary, who might not be aware that, in Scotland, we already have regular stakeholder meetings with Police Scotland, bus operators, Unite and Transport Scotland in order to work collaboratively on solutions. I am open to considering whether recommendations for action from the group could be best addressed through a wider summit.
I am considering fixed-penalty notices, and I have reviewed application of the Protection of Workers (Retail and Age-restricted Goods and Services) (Scotland) Act 2021 to rail workers. I understand that, although it is for the courts to determine, the definition of “retail work” might not apply to those who sell train tickets if a court deemed those transport workers to be engaged in the sale or supply of services rather than of goods. There might also be applications in relation to buses.
I emphasise the critical role for bus operators, as employers, in doing all that they can to ensure the safety of their drivers and passengers. I welcome the Confederation of Passenger Transport’s on-going commitment to progressing measures through a partnership approach with the Government and others. I strongly encourage all operators to prioritise the areas of Unite’s plan that have the potential to improve conditions for their staff. It is in everyone’s interests to let passengers know that they are welcome, safe and encouraged to travel by bus.
16:24
During the past fortnight, we have spent a significant amount of time discussing the topic that Claire Baker has brought to the chamber this afternoon—tackling abuse of bus drivers. We support the calls in the Scottish Labour motion. Unite the union has found that an alarming 84 per cent of bus drivers have experienced abuse in the past 12 months and that drivers are frequently beaten, spat upon and threatened by teenagers.
Members might recall that, at First Minister’s question time on 14 November, I asked the First Minister to outline what action the Scottish Government is taking to protect drivers and to clamp down on under-22s who abuse their free bus pass by committing antisocial behaviour. Mr Swinney’s response was helpful in that he confirmed that he would explore the point that I had put to him and determine whether any action could be taken. Only yesterday, the cabinet secretary wrote to me advising of the commitment to addressing that pressing issue, and findings and recommendations are expected by the end of the year. The need for that to be a priority is clear.
Next week, as we have already heard, I, Claire Baker and Mark Ruskell will host a round-table meeting in Parliament about the safety of bus drivers. I am glad to hear that the minister, Mr Fairlie, will also be in attendance. We will discuss the growing level of abuse towards bus drivers and how it can be tackled. A variety of stakeholders will attend, including Unite the union, FirstBus, Young Scot, Police Scotland and the Confederation of Passenger Transport. We have also heard that, on 14 December 2023, my colleague Graeme Simpson held a members’ business debate to discuss reports of antisocial behaviours on buses.
I want to go into some detail about the card curfews and confiscations that the Scottish Conservatives have been calling for.
Graeme Simpson’s members’ business debate was a year ago, so does Sue Webber share my disappointment that not much has changed in the past year? I appreciate that there are complexities, but I would have liked to have seen more progress in the past year.
We all would, and it is helpful that it appears to be the case that, in the debate this afternoon, we are all in the same place. That acceptance will go a long way, but we cannot let anyone rest on their laurels. I hope that we will manage to keep feet to the fire on this one.
The majority of young people use their concessionary cards responsibly. We know how valuable young people find those cards in getting to school, college, work and their leisure activities. It is a real pity that the minority of young people are spoiling it for everyone. The curfews that we are calling for would impact only the young people who have abused their privilege and would limit the hours in which they can use their travel pass. It is still imperative that those youths are able to access their education, after all. However, in extreme cases, there should be scope to remove the privilege permanently. My colleague will go into some of the breadth and depth of what that might look like.
The Green amendment that Mr Ruskell lodged is not one that we can support. It would remove all reference to the under-22 concessionary bus pass. We know from recent Scottish transport statistics that 95 per cent of buses have CCTV, so it should not be an impossible task to catch the perpetrators. However, there is direct evidence that the number of assaults on bus drivers has surged since under-22s were given the free bus pass and travel back in January 2022.
Here in the Lothian region, we are fortunate to have an award-winning bus service, but drivers and passengers are increasingly facing soaring numbers of incidents of antisocial behaviour. Since the introduction of the free bus travel scheme in January 2022, ASB has increased by almost 170 per cent on Lothian buses. From January 2022, when the scheme was introduced, to October 2024, 5,817 incidents were recorded on Lothian buses, which is an increase of 168 from the period between 2019 and 2021. To put that in context, in 2019 there were 473 incidents on Lothian buses. In 2023, that jumped to 2,581, which is an increase of 446 per cent.
As we know, it is not a Lothian-specific issue. There have been serious and tragic incidents, such as that involving Keith Rollinson, who lost his life in February 2024. The time to take action is now. We can no longer find reasons not to tackle the issue head on.
16:28
I thank Claire Baker and the Labour Party for bringing this serious and important debate to the chamber this afternoon. Scottish Liberal Democrats will support the motion, which I hope will be passed.
I also associate myself and my party with what has been said about bus driver Keith Rollinson. Our thoughts go out to his family, friends and colleagues. Their loved one went out to do a day’s work and did not return because of the horrific actions of another. I can only imagine their pain and grief.
Ensuring safety and security for workers is of paramount importance. No one should feel unsafe at work, whatever that environment may be. No one is entitled to make anyone else feel unsafe or to act however they wish to act and to cause fear and alarm. Free bus travel provision is not a free entitlement—it comes with responsibility. We should not be apprehensive about sanctions such as the removal of free bus travel from individuals who repeatedly and persistently behave antisocially towards drivers or other passengers, or who cause damage to buses, but any policy to remove entitlement to bus passes must be clearly defined. There should be just cause for removal, and there should be an appeal mechanism.
As Sue Webber and others have pointed out, the vast majority of concessionary bus pass holders use their entitlement responsibly. We should be wary of tarnishing any group of people with the antisocial behaviour brush, but the evidence of an increase in antisocial behaviour following the introduction of free bus travel for under-22s points towards younger people—albeit a small minority of them.
I note with great concern the fact that Unite the union’s recent mass survey of bus drivers in Scotland showed that 51 per cent of respondents did not feel safe at work. That was just one of the survey’s many shocking findings.
All bus users can be affected by antisocial behaviour. In its briefing, the Confederation of Passenger Transport Scotland highlights the concern that vulnerable passengers might become isolated if they feel unsafe travelling on public transport.
I call on the Scottish Government to do more to tackle the underlying causes of antisocial behaviour. Early intervention strategies that could prevent antisocial behaviour have been eroded through the decline and underfunding of youth services.
Scotland’s alcohol issues need to be addressed, too, as does underage drinking. We need to ensure that the legal tools and measures that are used to combat antisocial behaviour are fit for purpose and that they act as deterrents or punishments, or are able to provide rehabilitation.
Buses do and will continue to play a core role in our efforts to decarbonise our economy and tackle the climate emergency. The CPT estimates that a full double-decker bus can take up to 75 cars off the road. If everyone swapped one car journey a month for a bus journey, that could save 2 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, but people will choose buses as an alternative to the car only when bus services are reliable, convenient, appealing and safe.
Our society sets laws, rules and boundaries. When it comes to antisocial behaviour, we should not shy away from the task of tackling repeat offenders. Taking away free bus provision is not the only measure that we can pursue. There are many causes of antisocial behaviour that the Scottish Government can do more to tackle today.
We move to the open debate. I remind all members who wish to speak in the debate to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons.
I advise members that there is no time in hand. Speeches from back benchers should be of up to four minutes.
16:33
Members who have spoken in the debate so far have rightly stressed that it is a minority that causes the problems, but I suggest that it is a growing minority. The more that people who cause problems such as vandalism and threats, including physical threats, get away with it, with nothing happening to them, the more that it happens, not just on buses but in bus stations. I am told that it was pandemonium a few weeks ago in Dunfermline bus station. Therefore, action needs to be taken.
When I wrote to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport on 16 August, I did so because some of the stories that bus drivers were telling me were horrendous. People were going off work sick because of stress, and it was having an impact on their families as well. The current situation is not good enough. We cannot simply say that we looked at the issue a year ago because, in my view, not enough progress has been made.
In a briefing that it sent to all members, the Confederation of Passenger Transport Scotland said that it agreed that the right to free travel under the young person’s free travel scheme should be suspended or removed in cases in which individuals repeatedly carry out antisocial behaviour, and that there must be penalties in place for those who commit abuse. It went on to say that it made that request of Transport Scotland in the summer of 2023 and that it continues to raise the matter with the Scottish Government. The confederation then said that it understood that there were legal issues and that it hoped that ministers might shed some light on them today.
That request was made more than a year and a half ago. For problems to continue is just not good enough. That must be today’s message—it is good that we are having the debate, but we must move beyond talking and start to take action.
In her speech, the cabinet secretary pointed out that a lot of the issues depend on the bus companies. However, the Government is putting millions upon millions of pounds into those companies. I wrote to the cabinet secretary about Unite’s 15-point plan and asked her to call a summit and to use the plan as the basis for discussions. De-escalation training must be given to all staff—surely the Government can put pressure on the companies to do that. All buses must be fitted with robust safety screens—again, the Government can put pressure on companies around that. CCTV on buses must be working—an audit must be carried out in all locations, and a weekly check must be carried out thereafter. CCTV must be in good working order in all bus stations and must cover all parts of a bus station.
Will the member give way?
If the cabinet secretary is quick.
Very briefly, cabinet secretary.
The member is asking me to lobby bus operators, but does he realise that the UK Labour Government could now use its responsibilities in relation to vehicle regulations to do—in law—precisely what he is asking for?
I am not asking the cabinet secretary to lobby bus companies. I am saying that the Government is putting millions upon millions of pounds into those bus companies and should be making absolutely it clear to them that we expect to see the kind of actions that I have mentioned. It should be making it absolutely clear that it is not acceptable that workers are going to their work and being attacked, and that they are driven out of their jobs because of the threat of that. We have to make it clear to those who are carrying out such actions that their bus passes will be removed and that they will be banned from travelling on buses. That is the action that we demand, and the one that the Government must take.
16:37
I, too, welcome the debate, which was unfortunately prompted by dreadful, tragic circumstances, and I send my condolences to Keith Rollinson’s family and friends.
I note that the focus is on the impact of the concessionary bus pass for young people, which was introduced in January 2022. I recognise that any threat and aggression from, or anxiety caused by, passenger to driver and, indeed, other passengers are to be deplored. However, to give some context, more than 2.3 million people in Scotland have a concessionary pass—everyone under 22 or over 60 and disabled people and carers can now all benefit from free bus travel. Therefore, as other members have said, the overwhelming majority—young and old—use their pass responsibly. However, it is a privilege and, when abused, remedies are required.
Sometimes, crimes are being committed, so existing remedies can be used. They include diversionary and early intervention activities, if appropriate, alongside the use of police-issued formal warnings, fixed-penalty notices, antisocial behaviour orders and, indeed, prosecution. However, those activities happen post the event.
CCTV, which I know is on Borders buses and most Lothian regional transport buses, has its uses and might act as a limited deterrent, but there are those to whom it means nothing—in extreme cases, they might even see it as offering a challenge.
The briefing from the Confederation of Passenger Transport says:
“The under 22s Free Bus Travel Scheme is widely viewed as a success.”
It continues:
“There is however an acknowledgement that one unintended consequence has been a perceived rise in antisocial behaviour in and around buses in Scotland, observed by bus operators, but also by young people themselves, other passengers and representative groups. The Year 1 Evaluation of the Young Person’s Free Bus Travel Scheme highlighted ‘the perceived need to introduce some mechanism to police the use of the scheme and implement consequences for inappropriate behaviour.’”
I agree.
Let me focus on the minority of those—with or without a concessionary bus pass, young or old—who abuse. Although bus operators have their own conditions of carriage, those conditions apply to all passengers and include legal obligations regarding passenger conduct and, indeed, the right to refuse access to someone who wants to board.
It has been suggested that hotlisting passes would send a strong message and could be used to stop people boarding another bus, but that would mean that the driver still had a policing role and that confrontation would be possible. Protection and respect for the driver and other passengers are paramount.
I understand that Transport Scotland has the authority to remove the free bus travel benefit. Presently, it is revoked if the card is used fraudulently but not when an individual assaults a bus driver—that is surely wrong.
Finally, I have reviewed my own case files and found only one complaint regarding youth behaviour, which was in Midlothian on Lothian buses in 2023. I contacted the police, and the Midlothian community action team carried out additional patrols in the affected areas. A combination of high-visibility and plain-clothes patrols were also deployed on buses to deter and disrupt antisocial behaviour and identify those who were responsible. Although no criminal behaviour was identified, a number of youths were taken home to be warned about their behaviour in front of their parents.
I have had nothing from Borders buses in respect of young people. It may be that the drivers are local and know their passengers, and the passengers know their drivers. That perhaps lends itself to a more responsible culture and respect. It may be different in rural areas because culprits can be easily identified—I do not know.
I note the progress on a code in relation to receiving a concessionary bus pass, which I would welcome—I have a bus pass myself—and I support progress on restricting the passes of those who abuse them, whoever they are. It is a privilege to have one, and it should be used appropriately.
16:41
I begin by thanking Claire Baker for bringing the debate to the chamber and giving Parliament an opportunity to discuss this extremely serious matter. Abusive behaviour towards anyone—and certainly towards those who are just trying to earn a living—has no place in our society. However, the reality, as we have heard in the debate, is that such behaviour not only exists but is increasing.
We have heard a number of statistics in the debate. I will not go back over them all, but I will highlight one in particular—it is a shocking figure—that came out of the research conducted by Unite. That research shows that an astonishing 84 per cent of bus drivers say that there has been an increase in abusive behaviour incidents over the past year. We should just think about that for a moment—that means that we would have to search hard to find a bus driver who has not seen rising levels of abuse.
To put it another way, rising levels of abuse are becoming the norm. In fact, one bus driver is quoted in the research as saying that abuse is now
“just part of the job”,
and Unite found that more than half of drivers do not feel safe at work. That is simply not good enough. People have a right to go to work without fearing for their safety, and bus drivers’ safety is at risk. We have heard about the vile threats that have been made against drivers, and, worst of all, that a driver has died after being assaulted at work, as highlighted in the motion.
It is not just physical abuse that we have to be concerned about, though. I remember making a similar point when Parliament was debating the bill on the protection of retail workers. Abusive behaviour can have a serious impact on mental wellbeing, not to mention the distress that it can cause to the victims’ families.
Abusive behaviour also has an impact on our communities, many of which depend on vital lifeline services. Communities cannot afford to see them disrupted by the actions of a few who think that violent and abusive behaviour is acceptable. Just last month, Xplore Dundee had to withdraw a service from a particular area of the city following incidents of antisocial behaviour that had been on-going for weeks. That is not a new occurrence in the city. I note that the company called for action back in April following months of incidents.
There is no one group of people behind or single cause of abusive behaviour, and it pre-dates the introduction of free travel for under-22s. However, bus drivers have reported an increase in incidents since the scheme was rolled out. The scheme is obviously beneficial to young people, and I want to see them getting use out of it, but society is not about being given something for nothing. Responsibility is always attached, and people must help society in return for what society gives them.
The Government must show leadership. Yes, it should work with bus companies to improve safety measures, but it must also show that it means business by stripping free travel from those who abuse and threaten others.
16:45
I join colleagues in expressing my sincere condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Keith Rollinson.
A lot has been said in the debate already, and it has been good to hear lots of points of agreement. I will try not to be repetitive, but it is good that we realise the seriousness of the challenge. Too many of our bus drivers and other front-line workers are experiencing abuse and violence, which is not acceptable. It affects those in the workforce and people who want to get on the bus to get to work, access education, go to see their friends or spend money on our high streets. It is a serious issue, and it is good to see that there is a lot of agreement in the chamber.
I thank Unite the union for its role in lobbying MSPs and getting people to take the issue seriously. I remind members that I am a member of Unite the union. I also declare an interest as the parent of a child who has a young person’s bus pass and uses it regularly. I want her and all young people to feel safe when they are travelling on public transport up and down the country.
However, listening to our constituents and to people who have raised concerns, we hear that not everyone feels safe. That cuts across different ages and backgrounds. We need people to feel confident about using public transport, and we need people to feel that we are on their side.
I again draw attention to Unite the union’s 15-point plan. There are some really good points in it. Sue Webber talked about CCTV, and Mark Ruskell mentioned the plan. It offers solutions, and there is stuff in it that bus operators could get on and do. My colleague Alex Rowley made some important points that I hope the Scottish Government will reflect on, such as on conditionality and the fact that many operators receive public funds.
It is not just about bus travel; it is also about the wider public transport network. I am thinking about Hamilton, where the rail and bus stations are co-located. I am concerned about ScotRail’s proposal to reduce the hours of operation of our ticket offices. My colleague Richard Leonard raised that issue, but it also concerns me and other colleagues. We have to look at such things holistically. We are in a climate and nature emergency, and we need to get our economy working for our communities. Every pound that we invest in public transport makes a difference, and we all care about that.
I am grateful to Mark Ruskell, who talked about gender-based violence. Colleagues are aware that we are now in the 16 days of activism to end violence against women and girls. Misogyny, sexism and sexual assault happen on our buses, at bus stations and across our public transport system.
I looked to see what young people are saying. Members of the Scottish Youth Parliament say that they want safer public spaces and transport. Part of the solution is early intervention through better education, and not just in schools, but through youth work, too. Colleagues have not pointed the finger only at young people, because we would not want to do that. We have to look for holistic solutions. My colleague Martin Whitfield proposed a member’s bill on youth work. We need to ensure that we do not demonise young people and that we do not defund public services. We need to invest in our young people, and that includes investing in youth work.
16:49
The tragic death of Keith Rollinson following an assault at his workplace is a stark reminder of the dangers that our essential workers can face. Like my colleagues, I express my deepest sympathies for his family, his friends and his colleagues, who now bear the weight of such a senseless loss. I also pass on the condolences of my colleague Richard Lochhead, who, as the constituency MSP, has had many multi-agency meetings about this horrific incident.
Nobody should ever have to fear for their safety at work, and yet, for bus drivers, abuse and even violence can too often be a reality. That is utterly unacceptable. I hope that, as parliamentarians, we all see it as our duty to ensure that no one in Scotland faces such risks, particularly when they are simply doing their job and serving the public.
Our bus drivers connect communities. They link up our rural areas, our towns and our cities. They ensure that our children get to school safely, that workers can reach their jobs, and that people can stay connected. They keep our communities moving, often with acts of kindness that go unnoticed but that mean so much to people.
There is a road near my home that absolutely fills me with dread. Whenever my sons have to cross it, I have my heart in my mouth. Cars speed along at 60 mph—often above the limit—and there are no crossings. However, there is one bus driver in our area who knows my concerns and, when it is safe, she will drop my sons off at a point where they do not need to cross the road. That simple act of care is not part of her job description, but it reflects the responsibility and kindness that she feels towards her passengers.
Stories such as that one are not uncommon. Bus drivers often go above and beyond, whether it is in holding back while someone runs to catch the bus, helping an elderly or disabled passenger, or simply offering a smile or a kind word. It is even more heartbreaking, then, to hear that they are often the target of abuse and violence. The recent survey by Unite the union highlights that they are facing verbal abuse, physical threats and, in some cases, actual assaults, which is utterly appalling.
I welcome the Scottish Government’s commitment to tackling antisocial behaviour, and I support Unite’s call for a transport safety summit. Bringing together unions, bus operators, local authorities and other stakeholders can help us to develop comprehensive solutions. However, we must also address the root causes of antisocial behaviour. Training for staff on handling difficult situations is important, but those situations should not be happening in the first place, so education and early intervention are key.
Most passengers, including young people, behave responsibly, and the introduction of free bus travel for under-22s has been transformative. However, with privilege comes responsibility, and although most young people use their bus passes appropriately, there is a small minority across all age ranges who engage in antisocial behaviour, which cannot be ignored. Young people also want to feel safe on our buses.
I support exploring some sanctions, such as the potential removal of bus passes from individuals who repeatedly behave inappropriately. However, that should happen regardless of age. Anyone engaging in repeated antisocial behaviour should face consequences.
In conclusion, I want to thank every bus driver in Scotland—you deserve to come home safely at the end of the working day. You are not just moving people from A to B; you are connecting lives and supporting communities, and I hope that we can all work with you to help build a society in which respect is the norm, not the exception.
Thank you, Ms Adam. We now move to closing speeches.
16:53
This has been a positive debate. I might not agree with everything that Sue Webber and Claire Baker said, but it has been positive and I look forward to continuing the discussion with them and to finding solutions at the round table in Parliament next week.
It is important to understand and to reflect on the root causes of antisocial behaviour in a minority of young people. Karen Adam just spoke very well about that. Post Covid, there are individuals who face enormous social isolation, who have grown up in absolute poverty or who have grown up in an abusive household and ultimately have a lack of any kind of positive destination when they leave school. I think that we all understand that. Therefore, I would ask members to reflect on how positive free bus travel for under-22s has been for those individuals in giving them the opportunity to continue their lives and to be part of society.
I agree with Beatrice Wishart and Monica Lennon, who both underlined the importance of youth services and of engaging with disaffected young people. That is hugely important. We should not be demonising young people; we should be seeking to understand them and to work with them to ensure that they drop their antisocial behaviour. It is also important to recognise what antisocial behaviour is. Maurice Golden described it as vile or illegal behaviour, and as abuse.
Will the member take an intervention?
I do not have time.
I often receive in my email inbox complaints from constituents about young people who perhaps lack understanding of how to use buses and who, at times, might exhibit a lack of courtesy in how they use services. We can tackle those issues through appropriate education, such as those programmes that are identified in CPT’s briefing. When young people transition to high school, they receive their Young Scot cards, which is a good opportunity to educate them about how to use a bus. Some young people may not have been on a bus, and they may not be in families who have used bus services throughout their lives.
A good point was made about the adoption of a behaviour code in Manchester. It is good that the Scottish Government is looking at that. I think that a code could be introduced here and could be part of young people’s education when they go into secondary 1 and receive their Young Scot card for the first time.
I will say again that I do not think anything should be off the table when considering how to tackle illegal antisocial behaviour, including the suspension of bus cards. However, it is good to hear that the Government is looking at fixed-penalty notices. CPT underlined the fact that there are technical and legal issues associated with suspending cards, and, at the back of my mind, I have doubts about whether, on its own, that approach would be enough to tackle antisocial behaviour. Even if someone’s card is taken off them, they will still be able to get on a bus; they will just pay a fare or swap cards with their mates, they will force their way on, or they will hang around in bus stations where, again, they would be free to commit antisocial behaviour unless we have CCTV and the enforcement that is required at bus stations. We need a multi-agency approach.
In the most recent members’ business debate on the topic, the cabinet secretary spoke about work that was being done in Kilmarnock to identify those who were causing antisocial behaviour and to address the problems on the ground. I say to Alex Rowley that that is the solution for Dunfermline. Simply removing free bus passes may have a marginal effect, whereas getting in on the ground to do the hard work of tackling antisocial behaviour is what is needed. There needs to be functional CCTV and the footage needs to be followed up by the police and agencies. I am proposing a much broader approach.
I hope that members will reflect on that and support the Green amendment. Like Karen Adam, I thank everyone who works in public transport every day to serve us.
16:58
I remember where I was when I heard that someone had died at Elgin bus station. If anyone knows the station, they will know that buses drive in but have to reverse to get out. I assumed that there had been a tragic accident. It was a Friday evening, and that would have been terrible. Then, we heard that it was a bus driver who had lost his life, and we heard the details—that it was not a tragic accident but a brutal and sinister assault that killed Keith Rollinson.
Keith was a loving husband to Sue and a devoted dad to Sophie and Abigail. That night, their world was turned upside down. I cannot begin to imagine what they must have gone through that night and every day since. All that Keith—who had served his country in the Royal Air Force and was subsequently serving his community in Moray as a bus driver—had done was to go to work. He was just about to finish his shift. Concerned for the other passengers on the bus, he said to the young person, “You are not getting on.” Simply because he did that, Keith is no longer with us.
That is why we have to look at punishments and, indeed, withdrawal of the free bus pass as a sanction. The point that I was going to make to the cabinet secretary—I have heard it from others—is that this is not about persistent behaviour, although in some cases it will be. The fact is that, sometimes, a person’s behaviour is so brutal and unacceptable that, in itself, it should cause them to lose the privilege of having a free bus pass.
Christine Grahame and others have spoken about people having their free bus pass removed and have noted that it can be removed because of fraud. I cannot get my head around the fact that, according to a response to a freedom of information request that I have seen, since the scheme started in 2022, four cardholders have been suspended from the young persons free bus travel scheme, and in each case the reason was fraud. The message is that someone can get their bus pass taken away if they give it to someone else to use, but brutally assaulting someone does not result in their bus pass being revoked. That cannot be right.
I do not understand why we are having this discussion now, two years into the scheme. Why did we not discuss ultimate sanctions when the scheme was introduced? A pass can clearly be removed if people engage in fraud—that has happened to four people. Why are we only now looking at other reasons to possibly remove passes?
[Made a request to intervene.]
I would like to take Monica Lennon’s intervention, but I have two final points to make.
I know that we cannot go into the details of the person who pled guilty to Keith Rollinson’s death, but we know his age, and we know that, because there is no way to remove a pass, he will still be entitled to a young person’s free bus pass when he has served his sentence. What message is that sending? The message is that causing the death of a bus driver is not even enough to have a young person’s pass removed.
I will use my last words in this speech to quote what the Rollinson family—Sue, Abigail and Sophie—said in the immediate aftermath of Keith’s death. They said:
“On Friday, 2 February the kindest, dedicated and loving husband and father was taken from us. Our world has been shattered—I cannot see us ever getting over our loss of our rock.”
No family could get over the loss of their rock, and no family should have to face that situation. If anything comes out of this terrible tragedy, it must be that we in this place do everything possible to protect our bus drivers and ensure that Keith’s death is something that prevents other bus drivers from ever having to go through the same trauma and prevents their families from being left without a rock.
17:02
The debate is absolutely necessary and it is understandable that it has been brought to the chamber, particularly given Mr Ross’s testimony just now, but it is the kind of debate that is frustrating, because the reality is that we all more or less agree on the issues and agree that it is necessary to take the time to have the debate because of the actions of a few mindless individuals.
It is as sad as it is predictable that, no matter what we do in local or national Government or in society as a whole, there will always be a small minority of mindless individuals who behave in an unacceptable and inconsiderate way, who cause fear, alarm and distress or—worse—who hurt those around them.
What is also predictable is the clamour for someone or something to blame. That is understandable. However, there is a need for calm heads and considered thinking to find proportionate but effective solutions when such issues occur. No one should have to deal with such antisocial behaviour—certainly, no one should have to deal with what Mr Ross just talked about—in any setting.
Will the minister take an intervention?
I am sorry—I will not take an intervention today, as I do not have enough time.
People should not have to deal with such behaviour at their place of work. In the context of the debate, I say that passengers should be able to go about their daily lives without fear of intimidation and disruption. Equally, we cannot allow ourselves to fall into the trap of demonising whole sections of society because of a tiny minority. That principle should stand in all situations, whether it is at a football match, in shopping precincts or on public transport. We must ensure that people feel safe, but the under-22s bus scheme is not to blame, and the vast majority of young people who take advantage of that benefit are not to blame.
I urge caution in allowing our reaction to demonise the scheme and young people, which, in the main, are huge positives for Scotland and demonstrate the kind of country that we want to be. We witness innumerable examples of fantastic young people who are growing and thriving in our society by engaging and playing their part in what Scotland has to offer, aided and abetted by a policy choice that the Parliament unanimously agreed to deliver. I am not minimising any of the issues that we have heard about today, but I hope that we can collectively remember that positive aspect, in order to counter the sadness of why the debate was necessary. I hope that we can find collective solutions and stay focused on the tangible and visible positives.
I will take a moment to reflect on some of the contributions that members from across the chamber made. Like a number of members across the chamber, Claire Baker said that she recognises the scheme’s benefits. However, she also made a point that concerned me slightly. I think that 50 per cent of respondents to the Unite survey said that they did not get an adequate response from their employer, which is something that we should maybe have a conversation about. She also said that nothing was being done. Something is being done; things are happening.
Monica Lennon talked about women and girls, as did Mark Ruskell. I had the great delight of being at Waverley station yesterday to award ScotRail, Network Rail and the British Transport Police White Ribbon Scotland awards for the work that they are doing to help to protect women and girls.
The cabinet secretary, Fiona Hyslop, gave a comprehensive review of the actions that the Government is taking. I hope that members take confidence from the fact that we share the concerns of everyone in the chamber and that we are working to get to the root of the issues.
Sue Webber and a number of other members have noted the value of the national entitlement card. We must remember what it is actually delivering for our young people. Christine Grahame made the interesting point that there are regional variations—the problem does not exist across the entire country. There are young people in those areas who feel demonised because the subject is being raised. It is absolutely right that the matter is raised, but we must remember that—
Will the minister take an intervention?
I am sorry—I have 30 seconds left, so I cannot take an intervention.
Maurice Golden made the point that the issue has existed for a long time and that rights come with responsibilities. Monica Lennon also raised the point that we should not demonise young folk, because there are far too many brilliant young people who are using their cards day and daily and doing so appropriately.
I am happy to take part in the round-table meeting next week, when we can have these discussions in depth. However, in a four or five-minute contribution to a debate, we simply cannot get into the detail.
I call Sarah Boyack to wind up the debate.
17:07
I want to join colleagues in sending my sincere condolences to the family of Keith Rollinson, his friends and his colleagues.
The survey that was carried out by Unite reinforces the fact that antisocial behaviour on buses needs to be addressed urgently. Its members reported an 84 per cent increase in reports of verbal or physical abuse over the past year, and that is not acceptable. I hope that bus drivers and Unite members will take strength from our debate, because they have heard support from across the chamber. That does not happen very often in this place, but it is because of the nature of the issue and the appetite for solutions to be identified and implemented. There is also very strong support for the under-22 bus scheme.
The tone of Jim Fairlie’s concluding remarks did not really help us, because people do support the scheme. Some 150 million journeys have been made with under-22 bus passes. That is fantastic, and we can all be proud of that. The problem is the very small number of young people who are abusive, not behaving properly and taking antisocial actions, not just against bus drivers but people in bus stations and passengers, too.
Will the member take an intervention?
I will mention Sue Webber in a positive manner in a second.
The focus of our debate has been how we tackle the problem of threatening behaviour on buses, which is unacceptable. It also creates problems for bus users. [Interruption.] Like many who have spoken in the chamber today—
Could we please do Ms Boyack the courtesy of listening to her?
As many members have said today, across the country, we hear from constituents who are witnessing this antisocial behaviour at first hand, so we need to act now. The criticism of the Scottish Government—
Will the member take an intervention?
I am just about to reference Sue Webber. The criticism of the Scottish Government is about the speed and the range of actions. We are not saying that nothing has happened, but not enough has happened.
I thought that the tone of the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks was constructive, but, to go back to the reality, as Sue Webber commented, in the Lothians, we have seen buses cancelled, bus drivers threatened and passengers intimidated. There have been thousands of incidents. That is not acceptable.
We are having this debate for a second time, because we debated the issue last year, and it has been the subject of parliamentary questions over the past year. There is cross-party support for faster action.
I praise colleagues across the chamber who have made valuable contributions. Claire Baker, Mark Ruskell, Alex Rowley and Monica Lennon all pointed out the impact on bus drivers. It is horrific. We need to recruit bus drivers, not see them being intimidated. The lack of reporting that Mark Ruskell and others mentioned is key. We need to make sure that every incident is reported, so that bus drivers know that there will be a consequence—that the matter will be investigated and something will happen and will not be ignored.
Unite the union’s 15 action points are absolutely critical. Again, there is cross-party support for the physical changes that are needed in our buses, including CCTV and safe doors, and the infrastructure that is needed in our bus stations, as well as the social changes that need to be made. The solutions that we have called for in our motion would be an important step towards protecting bus drivers and helping young people to realise the consequences of their actions.
The cross-party support has been critical. The point that I make to the cabinet secretary and the minister is that we need action. We need the leadership of the Scottish Government to implement this stuff, because Unite has sent us a clear message. Resources need to be invested to support bus drivers and we need to see action by the bus companies. We need to see policing where there are incidents. There has not been a lot of reference to that, but there is an idea that it is not worth reporting incidents, because nobody will investigate. We need to up the scale so that people understand that action will be taken.
Maurice Golden, Christine Grahame and Alex Rowley spoke about what is happening locally to them, but this is an issue across Scotland, and we need to act now.
I also commend the briefing by the CPT, because it mentions tackling bad behaviour on buses and the positive messaging that we need to see in our schools and communities, so that young people understand the incredibly negative impact of such behaviour. What might start off as a joke becomes serious and brutal antisocial behaviour. That can impact on young people’s families, too, because they cannot get on a bus to get out to work.
We need to end the debate on a broader point. Why are young people turning to such behaviour in the first place? A lot of the time, they do not have anything else to do. There is a lack of youth clubs, poor provision of sport and culture facilities for young people and a lack of community spaces. As Ben Macpherson said in the debate last year:
“there are wider and deeper questions that we need to ask ourselves about support for our young people, ensuring that there is adequate youth work provision, helping our young people to engage in better behaviour”.—[Official Report, 14 December 2023; c 31.]
In concluding, I will mention that, this week, my colleague Martin Whitfield launched his bill, which would place a legal obligation on local authorities to ensure provision of and access to youth work, which is key. Young people have to feel invested in and cared for and to feel some pride in their communities. We must take important steps today, but to truly tackle antisocial behaviour, we need a longer-term, bigger-picture approach and a transformation in our communities.
If we debate this matter at the same time next year, we want to have seen a reduction in antisocial behaviour on our buses and an investment in our bus services and bus stations. Young people across the country should feel that they can use those buses, but there must be consequences for those who do not abide by the rules.
You must conclude, Ms Boyack.
That is critical. Let us work together. Let us not be here in the same place next year. Let us make progress together.
Thank you. That concludes the debate on tackling abuse of bus drivers.
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