Official Report 979KB pdf
The next item of business is a statement by Kate Forbes on the Scottish Government’s response to the—
On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. I apologise for not giving advance notice of this point of order—I appreciate that you have just taken the chair.
The statement that we are about to hear from the Deputy First Minister relates to a report that members have not seen. Indeed, the report appeared on the Scottish Government’s website only at 20 minutes past 2 this afternoon, during topical question time, which is precisely the time that this item of business was due to commence. I raise the issue because it is a 94-page report that contains 20 very specific and quite serious recommendations that I think we should debate properly. The problem is that the minister’s statement will relate to the content of the report, but no member has had the opportunity to read it and, therefore, to scrutinise its content.
The irony is not lost that the report is about the Government’s lack of transparency, yet we are to debate the content of it without having seen it. The practice is far too common, I am afraid. I request that the item of business be postponed to allow members to analyse and scrutinise the content of the report, which would put us in a better position to have a sensible and constructive conversation with the Deputy First Minister about its content.
I thank Mr Greene for his point of order. Of course, the information that it puts into the public domain in advance of ministerial statements is a matter for the Government. I would always encourage the Government to maximise the sharing of information, when that is possible, in order to facilitate proper parliamentary—[Interruption.]
Excuse me—I am speaking and I do not want any cross-bench chat. That is very discourteous.
As I was saying, I would always encourage the Government to maximise the sharing of information, wherever possible, in order to facilitate proper parliamentary scrutiny.
The member will be aware that the Parliament has agreed to the statement taking place, so we will now proceed with the statement by Kate Forbes on the Scottish Government’s response to the Martins review on the use of mobile messaging applications and non-corporate technology. The Deputy First Minister will take questions at the end of her statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions.
14:28
The purpose of my statement today is to respond, on behalf of the Scottish Government, to the publication of the Martins report on the use of mobile messaging applications and non-corporate technology in the Scottish Government. I thank the reviewer, Emma Martins, for undertaking that significant and important piece of work for us, and Scottish Government staff for participating in the review with integrity and candour.
The use of WhatsApp in Government and the subsequent management of those messages were scrutinised heavily during module 2A of the United Kingdom Covid-19 inquiry, and thereafter in the chamber.
To be clear, the use of mobile messaging applications during the pandemic—a time of unprecedented and particularly difficult circumstances, which required quick decisions and actions to support the response and protect the people of Scotland—was understandable in such pressing times. As in many workplaces, ministers and staff adapted at rapid pace to deliver what was required during an emergency response. At that time, a national lockdown had been declared, which restricted in-person contact.
The Scottish Government’s policy on mobile messaging applications states that any material that is relevant to decisions has to be recorded in the corporate record, as all ministerial decisions are. Scottish Government staff were acting within that policy, but, with hindsight, we have reflected, and I will set out a revised position today.
In January of this year, the former First Minister commissioned an externally led review of the Scottish Government’s use of mobile messaging applications and non-corporate technology. I am absolutely committed to the highest standards of transparency, accountability and openness in the way that we govern on behalf of the people of Scotland. I welcome the report and commend it to the Parliament. The report highlights that everything that we do should be underpinned by our service to the people of Scotland and commends the vision of the Scottish civil service, which is entitled, “In the service of Scotland”.
The report contains recommendations that are far-reaching across many aspects of how the Scottish Government operates. Many of those recommendations are specifically for the independent, non-partisan civil service, while others are for ministers. I will address both categories in this statement. The Government is committed to ensuring that the highest standards of transparency, integrity, accountability and honesty are adhered to at every level of leadership.
The Martins report emphasises the positive work that the Scottish Government has done to support our relationship with the people of Scotland, such as its comprehensive information management strategy. Such work will increase trust over time, and our response to the report provides opportunities to further build on that trust.
Specifically for ministers, the First Minister published his updated ministerial code earlier today. The code sets out the standards that are expected of all ministers—standards that the people of Scotland deserve of their leaders. It enshrines the commitment that we all make to uphold the seven principles of public life and to adhere to the values and the principles of service.
The changes that the First Minister has introduced in his edition of the code mark the most fundamental developments to the code since the introduction of independent advisers on the code in 2008. Those developments are furthered by the appointment of three new advisers, as announced on 6 December. In publishing this edition of the code, the Government has also published the terms of reference for the advisers for the first time. That sets out the detail of their strengthened role and the process of independent scrutiny and advice that they can provide to the First Minister.
The new code has also been restructured into three distinct sections: ministers’ standards of conduct; ministers’ interests; and ministers and the procedures of Government. That structure brings ethical standards and public service values to the forefront of the new code and ensures that the code reflects the governing rules and procedures that underpin guidance to ministers, including, for the first time, an explicit commitment on the use of corporate communications channels.
The Scottish ministerial code is only one aspect of the standards that are required in relation to public life that Ms Martins’ report mentions. She also addresses the civil service code. That is not within the power of Scottish Government ministers, so I am writing to the United Kingdom Government to draw its attention to the report and to ask for its assistance on recommendations that relate to the civil service code, which is within its powers.
Civil servants in the Scottish Government have undertaken work to develop a clear vision and a set of values for the organisation. The vision, “In the service of Scotland”, and the underpinning values of integrity, inclusivity, collaboration, innovation and kindness are promoted internally to all staff, through all communications and leadership, and targeted externally towards those who wish to work for the Scottish Government and serve the people of Scotland.
We are leading with our ambition to be an ethical digital nation. The vision is for a society where people can trust public services and businesses to respect privacy and to be open and honest in the way that data is used, and for a place where children and vulnerable people are protected from harm and where digital technologies adopt the principles of privacy, resilience and harm reduction by design and are inclusive, fair and useful.
We recognise that access to information is a key pillar of enabling democratic scrutiny and participation. The freedom of information improvement plan is already making improvements. It has developed comprehensive training programmes and detailed guidance, and it supports staff to respond more quickly and more effectively to requests.
The Scottish Information Commissioner has highlighted the response rate of the Scottish Government’s current level of performance, which has been maintained in the context of a continued increase in request numbers. We are now responding to more than 95 per cent of FOI requests on time, which reflects the Government’s commitment to transparency.
We have also made progress when it comes to the productive outcome of the progress update review that was undertaken in 2023 by National Records of Scotland in relation to the records management plan. The outcome of the 2024 review, which we have submitted, is expected early in the new year, and we will publish it on the Scottish Government’s website, as we have done in previous years. One of the key questions that was asked in the review was about the use of mobile messaging apps such as WhatsApp. The report provides a clear recommendation in that regard. We have taken the decision to end the use of mobile messaging applications across the Scottish Government. That will happen by spring 2025.
Government business should happen on Government systems, which are secure and searchable, and which allow the appropriate sharing of information, in line with our statutory duties. Scottish Government ministers and staff will not be permitted to use WhatsApp or any other non-corporate communications channel to conduct Government business. To give effect to that, non-corporate mobile messaging applications will, by spring, be removed from devices, and our technical environment will be configured so that they cannot be used.
Clearly, in our modern world, we need to ensure that we have robust business continuity arrangements in place, including the ability to communicate in the event of a cyberattack removing access to corporate technology. For those circumstances, very clear guidelines will be produced to ensure that every person in the Government knows what is permitted. We will take time to put the arrangements in place to ensure that all the necessary actions that are required to give effect to the decision are achieved.
The United Kingdom and Scottish Covid-19 inquiries are on-going. They are of vital importance to ensure that we learn lessons from the Covid-19 pandemic that will enhance our preparations for any future health emergencies. We have already received the UK Covid inquiry’s module 1 report, and we will provide detailed responses to its recommendations in due course, within the timescales set out by the chair. We will of course engage fully with the UK and Scottish inquiries’ future reports.
This review is part of our commitment to learning from our response to the pandemic and improving our practices. Our decision aligns secure, open and transparent governance, underpinned by sound records management policy and practice and the wellbeing of staff, with the values and vision of the Scottish Government.
I believe that the review will contribute to public services being improved, as the recommendations—on which we have already taken tangible actions—will improve records management practice and processes and improve trust in Government.
The report will be available on the Scottish Government’s website from this afternoon.
The Deputy First Minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for that, after which we will move on to the next item of business. It would be helpful if those members who wish to ask a question could press their request-to-speak buttons.
In accordance with section 10.7(h) of the Scottish ministerial code, we should have received Ms Martins’s report with the statement. The ministerial code was breached today, and no apology has come.
I make a declaration of interests as a practising general practitioner in the national health service.
How many First Ministers does it take to work out that conducting Government business on WhatsApp is wrong? The statement is a clear admission by the Scottish Government that what it has been doing is wrong and what it did over the Covid pandemic—not just the use of messaging apps, but the predetermined deletion of messages—was wrong.
Jason Leitch said that it was his pre-bedtime ritual to delete all WhatsApp messages, and a senior civil servant reminded everyone that WhatsApp messages are FOI-able and to delete them. What were they hiding? We will never know.
Given that the Deputy First Minister retained all of her WhatsApp messages, does she think that it was morally correct for others to delete their messages? Why is the Scottish Government not banning the use of WhatsApp for Government business with immediate effect in the ministerial code? Does the ban include all personal devices?
I refer Sandesh Gulhane to the statement that I just made about our decision to ensure that WhatsApp and other messaging applications will not just not be permitted, but that the environment will be configured so that they cannot be accessed on Government devices.
On the further points that Sandesh Gulhane makes, the reason why we have come to this decision is precisely because we value openness and transparency, and we want to ensure that Parliament is given the opportunity to scrutinise all the decisions that are made. As he knows, all Government decisions are recorded, and they are available to be scrutinised by the Parliament.
My final point is that in order to ensure that the change, which we will implement by spring 2025, is done appropriately and effectively, it will be accompanied by robust internal training in Government, so that everybody understands the policy.
Before I call the next speaker, I remind all members who wish to speak in the debate to please ensure that their request-to-speak buttons are pressed.
I begin by apologising for my previous comments.
I associate myself with Jamie Greene’s point of order and Sandesh Gulhane’s question about the ministerial code. It is certainly a question. Given that the report is dated November, the Government has had plenty of time to publish it. Most importantly, the principle is not just about electronic communications or freedom of information requests. It is about ensuring that all dialogue and deliberation, as well as the decisions themselves, are captured, so that we have a full public record. The Government has been editing and removing critical information that should be part of the public record.
Given that the statement refers to non-corporate messaging apps, presumably there will be corporate apps that are sanctioned by the Government, either in whole or in part, such as Microsoft Teams or SMS text messaging apps. If so, will the Deputy First Minister state what steps will be taken to record all such messages? Can she guarantee that no personal devices are being or will be used to conduct Government business or carry out Government discussions? Finally, does she agree with my framing of the issue? This is not just about Government business; it is about capturing discussion, dialogue and deliberation between ministers, civil servants and special advisers in the round.
First, all ministers have a corporate phone and are encouraged to use it. It will be made clear through guidance and training that mobile messaging on personal phones should not be used for official business. All staff who require one will be offered a corporate phone. As with the changes that I set out to Sandesh Gulhane, a period of time will be provided to support staff through that change. Thereafter, any usage that is not in line with guidance will be dealt with under existing policies.
The member asked what platforms will be permitted. All staff are advised to use corporately provided platforms such as Teams to communicate. My understanding is that MSPs also use Teams and are familiar with that platform. Corporate-controlled channels can be used and, as has been the case for many years, that includes email on corporate phones.
I hope that that answers the member’s question.
The Scottish Government’s commitment to continually maintain and improve performance and openness and transparency is very welcome. Can the Deputy First Minister advise what steps are being taken to monitor performance so that momentum is kept up?
Rona Mackay refers to the Government’s FOI compliance, which we monitor very carefully in order to maintain the exceptional 95 per cent delivery rate. I highlight again that we have maintained that rate despite there being a significant increase in the number of FOI requests.
I can almost—almost—recognise why, in an emergency, the Scottish Government went and used WhatsApp messages such as it did. However, the trust that the cabinet secretary spoke about has been eroded, because there was a consistent denial from the Government that these messages were sent by WhatsApp, and a denial that they were deleted, until it was found out. The only conclusion that we can come to is that the Scottish Government was hiding something.
Why does it require an independent review to finally get the Scottish Government to accept that its use of social media platforms to perform Government business was inappropriate and—to go back to Sandesh Gulhane’s point—was not morally correct?
I emphasise again, as I did in my statement, that, at the time of the pandemic, which hugely decreased in-person contact, Scottish Government ministers and civil servants adapted to respond at rapid pace in order to deliver services and facilities for the safety and security of the people of Scotland. At the time, in using WhatsApp and other channels, they were operating within policies.
With the Covid inquiries, we are reviewing and learning the lessons, and today I have announced that we will no longer use messaging apps.
Can the Deputy First Minister give any further detail in relation to the improvements that are being implemented through the FOI improvement plan and any continued assessment that is taking place?
The FOI improvement plan was drawn up in response to the Scottish Information Commissioner’s fourth progress report. It was published in January 2024 and has informed operational decisions that we have taken. We have concentrated on the areas of concern that the commissioner identified, and those measures have ensured that we focus work on driving improvements across FOI quality, the case files, monitoring and handling and clearance policies.
As a result of the improvement plan, a number of changes have been introduced to enhance processes and systems. That explains why we have been able to maintain the 95 per cent delivery rate, despite a significant increase in the number of requests.
A substantial amount of the statement is not actually about the Martins report, perhaps because nobody has had a chance to see it, but about revisions to the ministerial code. I note that the First Minister, despite being the gatekeeper and final arbiter of the code, is not making the statement—rather, he has delegated it to a minister who did not delete WhatsApp messages during the pandemic.
The position of gatekeeper and final arbiter of the code has been a problem in the past, so I note the changes that have been announced so that independent advisers can launch investigations into alleged breaches without referral from the First Minister. However, can the Deputy First Minister confirm that a complainer can go directly to an independent adviser and what the mechanisms for that would be?
The First Minister has set out the details of the ministerial code. The new code will strengthen all processes to support transparency, accountability and independent scrutiny, and it includes an enhanced role for the independent advisers that allows them to initiate investigations into alleged breaches of the code when they feel that it is warranted and without a direct referral from the First Minister.
It is welcome that the updated ministerial code includes, for the first time, an explicit commitment around the use of corporate communication channels. Can the Deputy First Minister provide any further details on that commitment and how it was developed?
I have set out today the Government’s position on our response to the Martins review, and specifically on the use of messaging apps. With regard to communication channels and the ministerial code, the First Minister has published the updated ministerial code, which includes clear commitments around what is expected.
A key part of the Martins review was an examination of the value of instant messaging apps to ministers in emergency situations and to draw on best practice in other countries across the world. In its response to the review, how has the Scottish Government considered its preparedness for communicating during future emergencies?
Gillian Mackay raises an important point. We will set out our response to the recommendations that the Covid-19 inquiry has made in module 1 on the question of preparedness. Within the Government, there is a ministerial group looking at how we can learn lessons, including on matters such as effective communication, particularly with the public.
As the cabinet secretary referenced in her statement, Ms Martins’s report also addresses the civil service code. Will the cabinet secretary say more about her engagement with the UK Government to ensure that the recommendations that lie within its responsibilities are properly addressed?
I said in my statement that we expect these standards to be adhered to by all levels of leadership. Where there are recommendations for the Scottish ministers, we have responded in the statement. Where there are recommendations for the civil service, we are conscious that the civil service code is within the responsibilities of the UK Government. I will write to the UK Government to draw its attention to those recommendations, and I will also write to the other devolved Governments.
Nothing in today’s statements will retrieve the WhatsApp messages that we know were being deleted wholesale throughout the Scottish Government’s handling of the pandemic. Nothing in today’s statement will offer closure or answers to the families of the Covid bereaved. In those deleted messages lay the culture and the calculation of the decisions under which we all lived and under which, I am sad to say, far too many of us died. What confidence can the Deputy First Minister offer Parliament that simply changing the platform for messaging will prevent such a deception from ever happening again?
I, too, express my condolences and sorrow to everybody who suffered during lockdown. Although it is now a couple of years beyond the period of the Covid pandemic, we know just how horrendously difficult it was and how people had to respond to those challenges. That is why we are committed to learning the lessons and participating fully in the UK and Scottish Covid inquiries. It is also why we have set out today our response to the Martins review, which the Government commissioned to look particularly at the questions of use of technology, because that dominated parliamentary debate and external scrutiny during the coverage of module 2A. We have set out quite clearly our response, which includes no longer using commercially controlled mobile messaging apps.
I am afraid that I believe that the late delivery of the Martins report was deliberate. I find that to be extremely unhelpful and quite disrespectful in this instance.
I listened carefully to what the Deputy First Minister had to say. It is naive to think that civil servants will not continue to use WhatsApp and text messages to communicate with one another. It is also naive to assume that they will not use personal devices if such means of contact are banned on Government devices. Will it be clear to civil servants what they can and cannot do? Will it be clear what enforcement can take place in the workplace of the Scottish civil service? Will the Deputy First Minister clarify whether the permanent secretary will respond in detail to the Martins report so that Parliament can scrutinise it further in due course?
I have been very clear, but I am happy to repeat the point that not only will the policy change so that ministers or officials do not use such apps; the devices will be configured to ensure that the apps cannot be downloaded in the first place. This is not the first time that we have done that, because our technical environment already ensures that no official or minister can download TikTok, for example. It is something that is within our gift to do.
As I said, we will develop the policies and the training on these policies between now and the implementation in spring 2025 so that there is total clarity on what is and what is not permitted. As I also said previously but will repeat, all ministers have a corporate device and are expected to use it for Government business, and all members of staff who need a device will be issued with a corporate device.
Between the training, the configuration of the technical environment and the issuing of corporate devices, that will ensure that the policy is fully implemented.
It is important that the seven principles of public life are upheld in the context of changing work practices in modern digital workplaces. Will the Deputy First Minister say more about the interaction with the principles of public life in relation to modern communication needs?
Those principles should be reflected in the way in which ministers and the Scottish Government act and interact, and that extends to the use of modern communication. Many workplaces have had to grapple with the rapid change and evolution of technology, particularly during the Covid lockdown period. I will also write to the UK Government and other devolved Governments about those principles, because some of the requirements and recommendations are specifically for the civil service code.
That concludes the ministerial statement. I apologise to the one additional member whom I was not able to take, given that time is moving on and we need to move to the rest of the afternoon’s business. There will be a short pause before we move to the next item of business, to allow front-bench teams to change positions.
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