The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-11199, in the name of Brian Whittle, on recognising the success of HM Prison Kilmarnock. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I ask members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament recognises the efforts of staff and volunteers working at HMP Kilmarnock to promote a strong culture of collaboration and rehabilitation throughout the prison, including through working with numerous local community groups over recent years with the aim of reducing reoffending; understands that this has included award-winning collaborations with local charity CentreStage to deliver employability and life skills training, as well as help with housing, health and welfare issues, and, more recently, with Recovery Enterprises Scotland, another local charity, on the creation of its Foundations Hub at the visitor centre within the prison; notes what it sees as the substantial contribution that these efforts make not only to reducing reoffending, but to improving the life chances of prisoners on their release by helping them to avoid returning to a pattern of harmful behaviour and offering them a different path; considers that the work done by HMP Kilmarnock’s staff and all those who assist them is of great importance, and notes the hope that their approach not only continues in the years ahead, but that it can also be replicated more widely across the prison estate.
17:31
I am delighted to rise to celebrate the great work that HMP Kilmarnock does, and has been doing, to support the rehabilitation of offenders, and its work with third sector organisations in supporting prisoners’ families and helping the transition of prisoners back into their communities.
I commend the work of third sector organisations such as Recovery Enterprises Scotland, which has a facility called the foundations hub just outside the prison, and CentreStage for the important work that they do. Between six and eight weeks before a prisoner’s release, those organisations start to work with that prisoner to help them in their transition back into the community.
After all, many of those who are incarcerated at His Majesty’s pleasure are not bad people; rather, they are people who have made bad choices. Whenever I have visited HMP Kilmarnock, as I have done several times, I am always impressed with the new skills and the education that it offers the prisoners. The first time that I was in there, being shown round, I was taken to the art class, where a gentleman was painting a quite magnificent painting. When I talked to him, he said that he had taken up art only when he was incarcerated. I asked him why it took going to prison for him to take up art, and he answered, “I never got the opportunity before.” In there lies a significant message.
The Parliament has really good links with HMP Kilmarnock. That is important, because it is about ensuring that, although prisoners have a debt to pay to society, we must always remind them that they are not forgotten.
To that end, I once offered to stage a football match between the Parliament’s football team and the prisoners. I remember asking the Parliament’s team if they would take part, as they all dived for cover, but we did take part. It was a tri-team tournament, as the prison guards also took part. I have to say that the prison guards were not all that au fait with our shouting “Mean Machine” while standing at the side watching the prisoners versus the guards; I am looking round the chamber to see which members recognise that reference.
We then decided to take the Parliament’s rugby team down there and play a tournament of sevens, which—again—was a great occasion. I have to say that I got sent off to the sin bin—I know that you will not believe this, Presiding Officer, but apparently I was a bit mouthy.
I have also been to Kilmarnock prison to take circuit classes with the prisoners. The way in which we, as a Parliament, have engaged with the prison has been exemplary.
However, given the successes of Kilmarnock prison in its care and rehabilitation of prisoners, one has to ask why, in 2019, the then Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Humza Yousaf, made a throwaway comment, during a presentation to the Scottish Prison Service conference, that he was going to take Kilmarnock prison back into public ownership. There was no reasoning or forethought given as to why he had decided on that course of action. To this day, despite repeatedly being asked that question, the Scottish Government has yet to deliver any kind of coherent response. That smacks of a headline-grabbing decision, rather than a well-thought-out and reasoned one.
We have a prison that is successfully rehabilitating prisoners through its education and skills training; third sector integration that is supporting prisoners’ families, and supporting prisoners as they approach release with all that they will need to reintegrate into society; an operator that is willing to build a new 240-bed wing at no cost to the taxpayer, creating an additional 100 jobs at a time when the prison population is increasing the pressure on the Scottish prison estate; and a Scottish Government that has made a decision, for what we can only deduce are ideologically driven reasons, to bring the prison into public ownership—because, of course, the Government knows better.
My colleagues Russell Findlay and Sharon Dowey and I recently visited the prison to meet with the governor and representatives of the prison officers so that they could raise their serious concerns. Those concerns included the fact that, with only nine weeks to go, how the harmonisation process will occur at all levels still remains unclear, yet they were advised two years ago that this was happening.
A letter from the SPS that we were shown by those representatives suggested that transfer of staff under TUPE—the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006—will take about 12 months. They asked why, given that the prison staff will all be SPS public servants from 17 March 2024, operating and managing a public service prison. Although l accept that the TUPE process may take four months or less, with staff receiving respective terms and conditions in line with the public sector equivalent, backdated to 17 March, the letter states that the indications are that, under harmonisation and TUPE, public sector pay rates will not kick in until up to 12 months after the transition and might not be backdated. That is morally wrong.
Separately, the current SPS pay negotiations are now entering 2024. I know that there is an attempt at a two-year pay deal. HMP Kilmarnock agreed its 2023 pay deal with Serco last year. That is being brought forward to allow what is happening with Kilmarnock to coincide with the SPS pay review for 2024. Staff are entitled to a pay review. If a two-year pay deal between the SPS and the trade union side is finally accepted, how will the 2024 pay review be balanced with the position of HMP Kilmarnock staff, who will be public servants? Is there a suggestion that staff will fall further behind their public sector counterparts during 2024? That is potentially a greater injustice.
Given the state of the public finances, which is well documented; taking away the ideology of nationalism; and considering the current condition of public prisons in Scotland, with increasing overcrowding and dilapidation, is it too late to re-engage with the existing provider to reopen the offer of building a third house block, further enhancing the existing prison? The existing operator has experience and a history of quick builds, and continues to operate at a significantly reduced cost in comparison with public sector operations, and that approach would provide much-needed new prison space. The decision that has been made is a political one—I get that. However, is it the correct decision for the Scottish taxpayer?
The trade union Community, which represents the prison officers’ position, fully expects its members to revert to SPS terms and conditions immediately following the transfer on 17 March. That is inclusive of all pay rates and bandings, and therefore, in the first month’s salary deposited by SPS to all HMP Kilmarnock staff, Community’s members will reasonably expect their salary and individual banding to reflect that of all colleagues across the Scottish Prison Service. It is Community’s opinion that the SPS is withholding the imposition of full harmonisation as a result of public cost implications, both for industrial and political reasons.
In summary, Community has already given notice to the SPS that, if the union’s members at HMP Kilmarnock are not reverted to complete parity with all SPS colleagues as of 17 March 2024, it will raise the appropriate claims on behalf of all its affected members immediately, and that, further, any failure to treat the members with complete parity is likely to cause industrial unrest.
That is where we are. A puzzling decision was made on the hoof by Humza Yousaf, which will cost the public purse more and will not result in the building of 240 more places by a successful operation that has delivered a service that supports prisoners and their families, and which works with the third sector to ensure successful integration into society and reduce reoffending.
Once again, I congratulate HMP Kilmarnock on all its successes. In doing so, however, I ask the Scottish Government to explain the decision to bring the prison into public ownership. Surely it is not too late to ensure that the best service is maintained and that staff are not disadvantaged when the takeover happens in just nine weeks’ time.
17:39
I thank Brian Whittle for bringing the debate to the chamber. I was happy to support his motion earlier today on the achievements of HMP Kilmarnock in my constituency—or Bowhouse, as we affectionately call the prison down there.
I recognise and applaud the tremendous work that has been done under the guidance of the redoubtable Craig Thomson, the director, over several years there. It always was, and still is, a pleasure to visit the prison and hear at first hand what the latest developments are. I say “hear”, because if members know Craig, they will know that you have to be ready to listen, a lot, and it is always a pleasure to be in his company.
When we, as members, get the chance to visit a prison or any other facility that serves the public, we quickly gain an impression of the leadership. I can say that, from the minute that I met Craig and his team, I got the clear impression that the prison and the management approach at Bowhouse were in very safe hands. I would be absolutely delighted if Craig chose to continue in post during—and, I would hope, long after—the transition to the SPS, to help to guide us through.
Covid was a huge challenge to us all, and in particular to our prisons, where we had a clear duty to keep staff and prisoners safe. The way that Kilmarnock prison dealt with difficult circumstances during that time was testament to the commitment of the entire Serco team, and they are to be commended for that in particular.
Brian Whittle mentioned a few of the local organisations that have close links with the prison, such as CentreStage and Recovery Enterprises Scotland, to name just two. Their support and link work has been nothing short of amazing. While some of the formal local support arrangements stopped during Covid, our colleagues at Recovery Enterprises kept going, providing essential support for prisoners on their release from prison; I say a huge thank you to them.
It is fair to say that the 25-year contract has had its ups and downs over the years. I recall that, shortly after my first election win in 2007, the union reps came to see me to complain about the contract conditions that had been imposed on the prison by the then Labour Executive, which set up the initial arrangements for the prison. One of the stand-out conditions in the contract was that Serco was fined every time that a mobile phone was discovered in the prison. That was a curious rule, as it meant that good policing and security in the prison led to a punishing fine.
Despite many attempts by me and others to review and modernise some of those conditions, they basically remained in place. However, looking forward, the transition arrangements are well under way and—as I understand it—the Serco team will transfer under their current terms and conditions and can look forward to some improvements in those as they progress. Overall, we are hoping to see more posts in the prison in the coming weeks and months.
My plea to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, and to the SPS, as we go forward is to build on the strengths and achievements that the Serco team have delivered for us in Kilmarnock; to continue to work closely with the local organisations and further that close working relationship; and to engage with the local businesses that support the prison, and which benefit from the support that the prison gives them, too.
As the contract comes to an end in March, although it might be the end of an auld sang for Serco and Kilmarnock, I put on record my thanks to the entire Serco team, led by Craig Thomson, for the magnificent work that they have done for us over the past 25 years—and to their representatives, too, it has to be said. It has been a pleasure to work with them all. I look forward to the beginning of a new chapter for the future of the prison in Kilmarnock.
17:44
I was going to write a speech, but then I found a memo that I wrote following a visit to Kilmarnock last October with my colleagues Brian Whittle and Sharon Dowey.
Let me read an abridged version of the memo. It begins:
“Memo: SNP transfer of HMP Kilmarnock from private to public ownership. Today we visited Serco-owned and operated HMP Kilmarnock which will transfer into public ownership at midnight on Saturday, March 16, 2024. Prison director Craig Thomson and his senior colleagues were critical of the SNP’s decision to transfer, the lack of explanation for doing so and a worrying lack of communication about how it will happen.
Mr Thomson says it will be more costly to taxpayers while delivering worse outcomes in relation to re-offending, to the detriment of everyone. He said the first anyone knew of it was in 2019 when then justice secretary Humza Yousaf appeared on the evening news to say that it was happening. The SNP’s sole motivation appears to be ideological—private is bad, public is good.”
I then listed various matters as bullet points:
“• Serco offered to build a new block at no extra cost to taxpayers, and which would now probably be open. But this was rejected by”
Scottish Government, to quote,
“‘after 15 minutes’”.
My memo continued:
“• The annual cost to”
Scottish Government
“of Kilmarnock is £16m. A report found that it is the least expensive prison in the UK and that the annual cost will rise by up to £5m. No-one appears to know the transfer cost.
• Mr Thomson estimates that due to the difference between contracts, Kilmarnock may need to hire up to 100 more officers.
• The SPS will not retain the in-house psychology team, education staff and housekeepers who are on payroll. These will instead be sub-contracted.
• The same applies to Kilmarnock’s 4 drug detection dogs which have stopped £1m-plus of drugs from getting inside.
• There are 84 body worn cameras across all 17 Scottish prisons with 56 of these at Kilmarnock. The SPS say they don’t want them, so Serco plans to send them to an English prison.
• Kilmarnock installed in-cell phones many years ago. This meant they did not need to emulate Humza Yousaf’s disastrous and costly mobile phone scheme.
• As a condition of contract, 10 per cent of Kilmarnock’s revenue is spent in the local community. This will end.”
The memo goes on to say:
“• A Serco senior executive flew from Australia to attend a meeting with”
the Scottish Government, and that
“Mr Thomson understands that the SNP justice secretary did not attend.”
It goes on:
• Kilmarnock staff use an app for rotas, holidays etc. This will revert to paper and pencil under the”
SNP. It continues:
“• The SPS may not recognise Community trade union which represents Kilmarnock staff. The union believe this could result in an impasse between staff and SPS. Anas Sarwar is a member of this union. What’s he saying about it?”
That brings me to the end of my memo, the end of my speech and, frankly, the end of my tether. The SNP’s treatment of HMP Kilmarnock is a metaphor for the ideological incompetence of this sorry excuse for a Government.
17:48
I thank Brian Whittle for bringing the debate to the chamber as members’ business. I always seek to offer recognition to workers and staff, so I join Brian and others in doing so.
The justice service is under enormous pressure, with increasing numbers of prisoners in the estate. Many prisons in Scotland are in a poor state, and much of our prison estate is extremely old, so it is nice, today, to be able to look at important examples of good practice that might help prisoners and their wider families.
I pay tribute to prison officers and staff in the prison service—the profession is often overlooked. Prison officers have a complex job, which their pay does not reflect, and yet, across the prison estate, we see them working with others to secure a positive future for the prisoners they support.
When researching for the debate, I found a comment that was made by Wendy Sinclair-Gieben, who is HM chief inspector of prisons for Scotland. She said:
“If we bring people into prison and do nothing with them, we will release them back into society angrier than they were when they came in. That is not appropriate. As a person in the community, I would like to think that the Prison Service is working with those people to reduce the risk when they leave.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 9 November 2022; c 1.]
That statement, which was made during a pre-budget scrutiny meeting, stood out to me as someone who is not an expert in this area. We know that many in our prison population are there due to complex social issues, as has been mentioned by other members. Perhaps people are reoffending or are at risk of reoffending because, on the whole, we do not support them in the way that we should.
There is strong evidence that prison, when used as a vehicle to care, support and rehabilitate, helps to return individuals into the community with a purpose for their future, which is helpful for them and their families and communities.
In doing a little bit of research, I found an approach in which there are seven pathways for helping prisoners not to reoffend. The pathways are helping them with accommodation; helping them with their attitudes, thinking and behaviour; helping them with their relationships with their children and families; helping them to deal with things that are important issues in society currently, such as drugs and alcohol; assisting them in entering education—Brian Whittle mentioned art—training and employment; looking at finance, benefits and debt, and helping them with those aspects as they transition back into the community; and, very importantly, helping them with their health. In my reading of the good work that is going on at HMP Kilmarnock, the organisations that are mentioned in the motion and the prison staff are seeking to cover all those pathways.
However, overall, the reality is that, although we have progressive policy in Scotland, we tend to have a punitive culture, and, to some degree, the attitude that can come across is, “We’ve always done it that way.” Sometimes, there is cultural reluctance to change, and all of us can be guilty of that. When we are changing such large organisations, doing so can be difficult.
The prison and justice services have been firefighting for some time—I think that even the Government recognises that. There is a backlog in the courts, and there has been overcrowding in the prisons, never mind the impact of the pandemic.
I do not have much time left, so I will mention the collaborative rehabilitative approach that is taking place at HMP Kilmarnock. We would all wish to support that and the work of the visitor centre, which liaises with local groups to ensure that prisoners, when they return to their communities, have the opportunity to make that work. Like Brian Whittle and others, I hope not only that that approach continues at Kilmarnock in the years ahead, but that it can be seen as the way forward and one that we can replicate more widely across the prison estate.
17:53
I thank my colleague Brian Whittle for bringing the debate to the chamber. HMP Kilmarnock is a success story. It is a well-run operation that supports local jobs and delivers good value for money for taxpayers. In those respects, it is something of a rarity in Scotland—in the Scottish National Party era, it is rare to see high performance and costs that do not spiral out of control.
The sensible decision would have been to continue the successful HMP Kilmarnock contract, and the smart move would be to model our other prisons on it. Instead, SNP ministers have chosen to end this success story and, for purely ideological reasons, to nationalise HMP Kilmarnock. It is an extraordinary, short-sighted and baffling move. This damaging decision will cost taxpayers money, hinder efforts to rehabilitate prisoners and leave staff in a worse spot.
The SNP Government could have let the prison continue running well, as it has been in recent years. Instead, as Brian Whittle outlined, SNP ministers have created all kinds of problems for themselves by not learning from this success story.
First, ministers have put at risk many effective things that HMP Kilmarnock does. It has many bespoke systems and programmes, which may not continue now, including a digital management tool to book medical appointments and family contact visits. Last year, it introduced a breakfast club for veterans in custody, which is a very worthwhile and commendable programme. I hope that that continues after nationalisation, but that remains to be seen.
Secondly, from speaking with the current director of HMP Kilmarnock, it is clear that staffing will be problematic for the nationalised prison. The many experienced staff, who do a great job at the moment, will need to change the way that they work. Staff contracts will be radically different. A lot of new recruitment will be necessary in the light of the change. Recruitment may become even more challenging if current staff leave because of worsening working conditions.
As my colleague Russell Findlay said, when the Scottish National Party nationalises HMP Kilmarnock, body-worn cameras will be taken away from the prison officers and may be sent south to English prisons. That makes no sense whatsoever. The provision of those devices to officers by HMP Kilmarnock was a positive thing and it should continue.
That is an example of cost cutting by the SNP, but, unbelievably, it looks as though nationalising HMP Kilmarnock will be far more expensive than the current contract, under which HMP Kilmarnock provides great value for taxpayers. Perhaps even more shocking is the fact that we do not yet know how much more nationalisation will cost than the current approach. No estimates are available. That work really should have been done before any plans to end the contract were announced.
At the Scottish Parliament’s Criminal Justice Committee in November, I asked the Scottish Prison Service whether a full assessment of budgetary requirements had been completed. Just a few months before the date of nationalisation, that had still not been done, and whether it has been completed now is unclear. Value for money does not appear to have been a consideration in the decision, and no studies appear to have been done on how much more the nationalisation will cost taxpayers. According to some estimates, it may cost £3 million to £5 million more—several million pounds that could have been spent on schools, hospitals or other essential public services.
It seems that the SNP was never interested in the positives of HMP Kilmarnock. It was not interested in the fact that it is good value for money and runs effectively. It was not interested in saving money that could be spent on schools and hospitals. For purely ideological reasons, SNP ministers will end the success story of HMP Kilmarnock, and Scottish taxpayers will suffer as a result.
17:57
I thank Brian Whittle for securing the debate, which is a timely one. I appreciate the fulsome account that Mr Whittle and others have given of the excellent work that goes on within the walls of HMP Kilmarnock. I am perhaps less impressed by Mr Whittle’s endeavours in football and rugby.
On a more serious point, it is imperative that, as members of this Parliament, we engage with the prison service and the individual establishments in our regions and constituencies. Often, work in our prisons is hidden. We need to recognise that what happens in prisons matters. It is not the end of the line, because most people serve a determinate sentence and return to our communities. I am therefore pleased that Carol Mochan, Willie Coffey and Brian Whittle have acknowledged the importance of prisons as rehabilitative institutions and the fact that they have a role to play in improving community safety and changing lives.
Last August, I had the pleasure of visiting HMP Kilmarnock. From walking around the prison and spending time with its director, Craig Thomson, who is clearly a very experienced governor, and from having the opportunity to speak to staff and prisoners, I got a really good sense of the significant efforts, skill and enthusiasm of the staff at the establishment.
I will touch on the issue of private prisons. I will give an account of the Government’s position on the matter, but I also point to the fact that I have a private prison in my constituency, which is run by a different provider. I and this Government have always had fundamental objections to private prisons but, nonetheless, I have never sought to kick down that prison or the people who work in it just because of its model of ownership.
It is also the case that even although we have two private prisons in Scotland, when things are—as Willie Coffey said—a bit rocky or there are ups and downs, because the SPS has responsibility for the contract, it is incumbent on the SPS to step in or lean in, as is the case for any such institution in Scotland when there are issues.
When I visited Kilmarnock, I was very pleased to hear about the positive impact of the sustained early engagement of the SPS and Serco with staff in preparation for the transition of HMP Kilmarnock to public ownership in March. As has been noted, this is a significant transition and the first transfer to public ownership of a privately operated prison in Scotland.
As members might recall, that decision was taken in 2021. It is no secret that this Government, since its formation in 2007—
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
I will in one moment.
The Government’s position has always been that prisons, like other significant public services, should be managed as part of the public sector. At a fundamental or core level, that is because public safety and not private profit is paramount. Of course, the contracts and the decisions on them were legacy arrangements from previous Administrations.
On that specific point, in response to a written question, the cabinet secretary told me that the decision to transfer was made in 2021. However, Humza Yousaf made the announcement in 2019. Was that a sham announcement?
We are trying to have a really serious debate about the quality of care and supervision in HMP Kilmarnock. In a moment, I will get on to talking about the successes of the organisation that must be maintained when it takes the significant step of coming back into public ownership.
The reality is that, with a 25-year contract coming to an end, there were really only two choices—the contract would either be retendered or the prison would be brought back into public ownership. For the reasons that I have outlined, the Government took the decision to bring the prison into public ownership.
In the time that I have left, I want to talk about the successes of HMP Kilmarnock. It is not only me who has noticed the professionalism and care of the staff. Independent prison monitors note in their annual report the extremely positive experiences of visiting the prison. They note that it is
“a well-run prison that feels safe and orderly”
with
“excellent provision of purposeful activity on a daily basis”.
That is something to be proud of.
Does the cabinet secretary not recognise that she is giving us the narrative of why the prison should remain as it is, given that it is a huge success? I understand that there is an idea that such a service should not be in private ownership, but surely it is about outcomes. The prison is being run very well, so why would we change that?
As I said, the contract was coming to an end, so we had to either retender or bring the establishment into public ownership. I have outlined why the Government believes that public ownership of prisons is preferable. I am acknowledging that independent inspections and experts have acknowledged that HMP Kilmarnock is on a par—[Interruption.] No, I will not take another intervention, thank you.
Independent inspections and experts have acknowledged that HMP Kilmarnock is on a par with other SPS establishments.
In the very brief time that I have left, it is important that we, as others have done, acknowledge some of the successes of HMP Kilmarnock. I was particularly interested that, as Sharon Dowey mentioned, the prison introduced a monthly veterans in custody breakfast club. When I was first a member of the Parliament many years ago, due to my prison background, I had an interest in the prevalence of veterans in the justice system. It is great to see that initiative. HMP Kilmarnock also has strong community partnerships and excellent intelligence relationships. It works closely with the local police.
Brian Whittle, Willie Coffey and Carol Mochan have paid tribute to the organisation Recovery Enterprises Scotland, which I am familiar with, particularly from my previous role as Minister for Drugs Policy. The organisation has taken on the delivery of the prison visitors centre at HMP Kilmarnock—[Interruption.] No, I will not take an intervention, thank you.
That work is supported by Scottish Government funding. The foundations hub visitors centre is a supportive and inclusive environment for people—[Interruption.] No, I will not take an intervention, thank you.
It is a supportive and inclusive environment for people in custody and their families.
Before you chastise me for overrunning my time, Presiding Officer, I will end by putting on record my thanks to HMP Kilmarnock. I take this opportunity to thank all the current and previous staff and management there for their important service to the justice system in Scotland. HMP Kilmarnock has been a well-managed and forward-thinking prison in Scotland for 25 years, and I assure members that the SPS will harness and build on that success after the transition.
I will end by reiterating the point that Willie Coffey made that it is important to build on the prison’s strengths and achievements and support it in this new chapter.
That concludes the debate and I close the meeting.
Meeting closed at 18:06.Air ais
Decision Time