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Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Meeting date: Thursday, March 13, 2025


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Nicola Sturgeon

What was Nicola Sturgeon’s biggest failure in office?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

Nicola Sturgeon gave very strong leadership to Scotland during some really difficult times. She took forward a large number of policy innovations that have made Scotland a better country than we have been in the past. I noticed that, yesterday, there was a gracefulness—I suspect that this will be the tone of today’s exchanges—in the responses of Mr Sarwar, Mr Cole-Hamilton, Mr Harvie and Ms Slater to the service of Scotland’s first female First Minister and the longest-serving First Minister. I notice that that graceful tone has been jeopardised by Russell Findlay.

Russell Findlay

John Swinney appears to have misheard my first question—or maybe he just finds it impossible to pick from Nicola Sturgeon’s vast back catalogue of failures—so let me help him.

I will start with Scotland’s once world-leading education system, which is now more interested in teaching pupils about pronouns and feelings than about literacy and numeracy. Nicola Sturgeon is responsible for Scotland’s place in league tables plummeting and for failing Scotland’s poorest pupils. She said that she would eliminate the attainment gap, but it remains as wide as the Clyde. Will Nicola Sturgeon’s education secretary, John Swinney, admit that, together, they have failed a generation of young people?

The First Minister

No, I will not, because that is not the case. The poverty-related attainment gap has reduced by 67 per cent since 2009-10 under the leadership of this Government. Indeed, we see clear signs about the future performance of the education system: we have a record-low poverty-related attainment gap in primary school literacy and in secondary 3 literacy and numeracy.

While Mr Findlay works his way through different aspects of the record of the Government of which I have been proud to be a member—and in which I was proud to serve as Nicola Sturgeon’s education secretary and Deputy First Minister—he should remember that there has been a 44 per cent increase in the number of 18-year-olds from deprived backgrounds going to university in this country. I am proud that we have widened access to Scottish education.

Russell Findlay

There we have it—a First Minister who stands there and declares that he is proud of failure. If there is a single word that defines Nicola Sturgeon and her politics, it is “division”. She pitted Scot against Scot in her obsessive attempts to break up our great country—[Interruption.]

Let us hear one another.

Russell Findlay

—but her fixation on gender has become just as divisive as her nationalism. The first-ever female First Minister trampled on women’s rights. She could not even bring herself to admit that a double rapist was a man. For years, the Scottish National Party Government was distracted by that fringe obsession. Nicola Sturgeon focused on “they/them” instead of improving public services for everyone.

Nicola Sturgeon is heading for the exit, but John Swinney is sticking with her toxic agenda. Now that she is quitting, should the SNP’s gender obsession not follow her out the door?

The First Minister

During Nicola Sturgeon’s term in office as the first female First Minister of Scotland—which I think is a moment of enormous significance for the country to have experienced—she led a Government that introduced the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018, which makes psychological domestic abuse and controlling behaviour a crime. I am proud that this Government took that action to bring that legislation to the Parliament.

We also took action to provide access to free period products in public spaces. Nicola Sturgeon introduced—[Interruption.]

I do not know why Conservative members are laughing about all that. [Interruption.]

Let us hear the First Minister. [Interruption.] Colleagues, I remind all members of the need to abide by our standing orders.

The First Minister

We also introduced legislation to ensure that 50 per cent of non-executive members of boards of public bodies would be women. Nicola Sturgeon appointed the first-ever gender-balanced Cabinet. One of the other things that she did that I think was particularly important is that she led the campaign against the despicable rape clause that was presided over by the Conservative Government in London.

Russell Findlay

John Swinney is scraping the barrel so much that he nicked Monica Lennon’s period products policy.

It is because of Nicola Sturgeon that people in the real world have never felt more disconnected from this place and so disillusioned with it. By any honest assessment, Nicola Sturgeon has failed Scotland. She divided our country, betrayed women, broke her promises to pupils, launched a ferry with painted-on windows, raised taxes, alienated business and allowed drug deaths to spiral to the worst in Europe. Even on her life’s mission, she failed. Nicola Sturgeon tried to break up her great country, but we, the Scottish Conservatives, stopped her.

Nicola Sturgeon will leave—[Interruption.]

Let us hear Mr Findlay.

Russell Findlay

Nicola Sturgeon will leave amid an on-going police investigation into the SNP’s finances, while John Swinney still backs her toxic politics to the hilt. Yesterday’s man is standing by yesterday’s woman. How can he ever change Scotland for the better when he has been at the heart of the problem for two decades?

Russell Findlay used the term “scraping the bottom of the barrel”. That is exactly what Russell Findlay has just done—[Interruption.]

Mr Hoy, you seem to be having particular difficulty in adhering to the standing orders of this Parliament. I will not ask again that you adhere to those standing orders.

The First Minister

Russell Findlay has just scraped the bottom of the barrel with the type of toxic personality politics that has become the character of the Conservative Party in Scotland. There was not a single suggestion in that question or a single example of how Scotland could be improved. The Conservatives inflicted 14 years of austerity on this country and busted the public finances with the stupid and reckless budget that Liz Truss presided over, which Russell Findlay wanted me to emulate, but he could not make a single suggestion about how to improve Scotland for the better.

The more the people of Scotland look at the Scottish Conservatives, the more they will see a party that is toxic in everything that it says, that is interested only in running down this institution and that is a direct threat to Scottish self-government. I will be proud to lead a Government that addresses the real concerns of the people of Scotland and provides hope for the future for the people of Scotland as we trample past the Conservative Party in the years to come.


National Security (Skills)

2. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow) (Lab)

Global events are reshaping the world before our eyes. This is a generation-defining moment, and all political parties and both of Scotland’s Governments must adjust to the new reality and rethink previous red lines.

That means having a renewed focus on national security—that is, defence, energy and economic security. I support the United Kingdom Labour Government’s decision to increase defence spending, which will not only help to keep us safe, but will deliver more investment and jobs in Scotland. Scotland’s proud history and present-day strengths in shipbuilding, engineering and manufacturing mean that the increase in defence spending can disproportionately benefit us.

However, our outdated skills system holds Scotland back, with businesses warning of workforce shortages and modern apprenticeships being at their lowest level in a decade. Does the First Minister accept that we need to build a skills system that is fit for the future, so that we can take full advantage of the investment that is coming to Scotland?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I do believe that, and that system is what the Government is determined to ensure is in place.

We work closely with employers to ensure that our skills approach—particularly regarding the reforms to apprenticeships that we have undertaken in recent years to create foundation and graduate apprenticeships and to expand the range of possibilities that are in place for young people in the education system, coupled with the very close work between the business community and colleges around the country—will ensure that we have the skills that are necessary for the 21st century.

Anas Sarwar

I welcome the First Minister’s constructive approach, but the facts do not match his stated position. The reality is that much of the skilled labour in Scotland’s defence industry is coming from abroad on temporary contracts because we are not equipping Scots with the skills that they need.

Grown-up serious politicians must rise to this generation-defining moment and be willing to re-examine previous red lines. Our defence industry is worth £3.2 billion to the Scottish economy every year and directly supports 33,000 jobs, but this Scottish National Party Government’s approach to Scotland’s defence sector has been at best uncomfortable and at times hostile.

My fear is that the world has changed, but the SNP has not. We must all rise to this moment and ensure that we are never at the mercy of dictators such as Putin. So, will John Swinney re-examine his red lines, support our defence sector, ensure our energy security and back our nuclear deterrent?

The First Minister

There were a number of points made there. Mr Sarwar knows my position on the nuclear deterrent—I do not believe that nuclear weapons should form part of the defence approach that we take forward.

Mr Sarwar asked me a number of substantive questions about skills. The Government invests heavily in a number of elements to enhance manufacturing capability in Scotland. The National Manufacturing Institute Scotland, which is on the outskirts of Glasgow airport, makes an important contribution to creating opportunities for investment in advanced manufacturing.

On dialogue with the defence industry, the Deputy First Minister yesterday met the delivery board on the national strategy for economic transformation. Sir Simon Lister of BAE Systems is a member of that board, which is discussing the very issues that Mr Sarwar has put to me regarding the importance of enhancing the skills offering for the defence sector. The Government is engaging in those discussions. Part of our duty is to ensure that the country is secure and safe.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs is also bringing to Cabinet proposals that will expand the extent of our involvement in resilience—in particular, in cyberresilience, in which the country faces enormous threats. The Cabinet will regularly engage in updating our approach to ensure that we are safe in every respect.

Anas Sarwar

Last week, the SNP’s former Westminster leader, Ian Blackford, urged John Swinney and his party to reconsider their position on the Trident nuclear deterrent. Mr Blackford said:

“When the facts change, careful consideration of our response is appropriate.”

However, rather than taking on that point, John Swinney dismissed it. At a time when there is a war on our continent and the world is growing increasingly dangerous, the SNP’s position is that we should give up our nuclear deterrent now while countries such as Russia hold on to theirs. This is not a time for rigid ideologies but for serious and pragmatic leadership.

Keeping our country safe should be the first priority for any Government, but is it not the case that, whether on economic security, energy security or national security, the SNP’s policies would make our country less safe and less secure?

The First Minister

First, I welcome the fact that we are in a better position today regarding resolution of the war in Europe than we were when we met seven days ago. That is helpful and comes as a consequence of the engagement that has been undertaken and that was the subject of a discussion I had on Tuesday with the Foreign Secretary at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office in London to consider the steps that are being taken. I place that point on the record.

Secondly, it is important that we have the defence forces and requirements that are necessary for our times. I simply point out to Mr Sarwar that nuclear weapons are held by a number of countries just now, but that has not stopped the conflict that is taking place in Ukraine at this very moment.

What we need in order to ensure that we can repel Russian aggression is effective conventional forces. On the conventional forces of the United Kingdom, the previous Government promised in 2014 to increase the number of Scotland-based personnel in the regular armed forces to 12,500 by 2020. That was not met, so I am not going to stand here and take lectures from Mr Sarwar about the actions of the United—[Interruption.]

That was the Conservatives.

The First Minister

I know that it was the Conservatives. I am well aware that it was them: I am across the factual detail that it was them. I am simply pointing out that I am not going to take lectures about the actions of a United Kingdom Government when that is the record of the United Kingdom Government.


Clean Heating

3. Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)

After months of uncertainty, the Government has finally confirmed that it is dropping the plan to help people to switch to clean and affordable heating. Just as bills are about to rise again, the First Minister wants to keep people locked into expensive and polluting fossil fuels for even longer.

Scotland has already lost out on manufacturing jobs in building heat pumps. It is an industry that wants to grow, to take on more people and to invest for the future. People need help to make the change, and the industry needs clarity to make it happen. Both are urgently needed if we are to catch up with the missed climate targets, cut people’s bills and create green jobs.

As the SNP slows down on climate action, why does the First Minister think that any clean heat business would bother investing in Scotland now?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I appreciate that there are strongly held views on the issue, and I want to provide some reassurance to the Parliament today. The Government will introduce a heat in buildings bill when we are satisfied that the interventions in it will be able to decrease fuel poverty at the same time as they decarbonise houses. That is the commitment that the Acting Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy gave to Parliament on Tuesday, and I reiterate it today.

One thing that has changed—Mr Harvie is absolutely right on this—is that, since the original discussions about the proposed heat in buildings bill, the cost of energy has increased very significantly indeed. As a consequence of that, we have increased levels of fuel poverty. We need to take action that will decarbonise homes at the same time as it will reduce fuel poverty, and that commitment will be at the heart of the Government’s agenda, as part of our sustained efforts to fulfil our commitments on climate action.

Lastly, Mr Harvie asked me about investors. I want to make it clear to investors that the Scottish Government is absolutely committed to our agenda on climate action and will support and bring forward measures to enable that agenda.

Patrick Harvie

That is the opposite of the message that investors and businesses are getting at the moment.

The First Minister knows that the Green plan was always for financial support for households and for clear regulations. Both are essential, but we now know that the Government is not going to do either. If people get the help that they need to make the change, they can save as much as half of their heating bills, which is something that most people would jump at.

However, at the same time as the First Minister is talking about fuel poverty, he is also going to be hammering everyone who rents from a private landlord. From 1 April, at the same time as energy bills are about to rise again, the First Minister is about to permit uncontrolled rent increases on top of that, and he is proposing new rules to make sure that even the highest rents are going to keep on rising even faster than inflation.

People cannot cope with today’s bills, and many will not cope with the benefit cuts that Labour has in store for them. Is it not also becoming increasingly clear that they cannot rely on the Scottish Government to protect them from energy bills or rent hikes?

The First Minister

What I hope individuals hear is that the Government, in its budget, which Mr Harvie supported, is committing to delivering more than £300 million of investment in the heat in buildings programme. That is a huge amount of public money being invested in lowering the costs of domestic heating for individuals, and that financial support is available as part of our financial programme.

In relation to housing, the Government has committed to bringing in rent controls and we will do that. The proposed legislation is currently being scrutinised in the Parliament. It will provide protection for individuals through rent controls. Measures and mechanisms are available to individuals to challenge rent increases that they experience as a consequence of the existing legislative framework, but the Government is going further by introducing rent controls, and I look forward to the Parliament scrutinising and supporting the legislation.


Power Infrastructure (Discounts)

4. Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)

To ask the First Minister, regarding any potential impact on planning legislation in Scotland, what the Scottish Government’s response is to reports that the United Kingdom Government has proposed giving people living near power infrastructure hundreds of pounds off their bills each year. (S6F-03892)

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The Scottish Government does not anticipate any potential impact on planning legislation arising from the UK Government’s proposal to provide bill discounts to people who live near electricity infrastructure. The UK Government’s figures suggest that fewer than 1 per cent of households will be eligible for a discount under the planned scheme.

The Scottish Government believes that it is absolutely essential that communities see a positive, lasting legacy from the infrastructure that they host. Scotland has made good progress on that already through our voluntary approach to community benefits.

Christine Grahame

I think that most people who were offered up to £250—because it is only up to £250—off their energy bill to agree to having a pylon in their back garden would consider it a cheap and insulting bribe. Could the Scottish Government make it a condition of any planning consent that those affected by where pylons are to be located should at least benefit from local energy pricing?

The First Minister

The specific issue that Christine Grahame puts to me relates to energy pricing, which is a reserved matter, so an interaction would have to take place with the UK Government and be resolved. We expect any transmission owner to fully consult local communities and the relevant statutory and local bodies regarding proposals for development before submitting applications, including for pylons, and we expect all of the dialogue to take place to ensure that the voice of the community is heard in every respect.

Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con)

I have been in contact with many of the campaigners who want fairer ways to transmit energy to hear their views on the £250 amount. One constituent, June, told me:

“I think it’s disgusting, and another bribe for some people.”

She also said:

“It won’t make a dent in the drop in property prices.”

Another constituent, Vince, told me:

“Offering a householder £250 per annum is derisory, to say the least.”

Does the First Minister agree with June and Vince that the amount offered is a drop in the ocean compared with the tens of thousands of pounds that people have seen wiped off their property value, and will he do something that his ministers have all refused to do and come with me to meet the campaign groups that are feeling ignored by both of their Governments?

The First Minister

Douglas Lumsden raises an issue related to a policy proposal of the United Kingdom Government; it is not a policy proposal of the Scottish Government. Douglas Lumsden is at the front of the queue to complain when this Government raises any issues with the UK Government’s actions, so I gently point out the complete hypocrisy that is lying at the heart of his question. The Government engages in a wide degree of consultation and dialogue with interested parties on issues related to energy transmission, and that will continue under my leadership.

Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)

The First Minister will also be aware of the concerns raised by those who live near wind turbines. Does he agree with me that the regulations on them need to be updated? What more does he believe could be done so that those who live near wind turbines get more benefits?

The First Minister

I favour the suggestion that people who are in close proximity to wind turbines should get economic and community benefits, and that has been built into the schemes that the Government has taken forward. If there are specific points that Katy Clark is worried about on the existing regulations on wind turbines, I would be happy for ministers to consider those proposals if she wished to submit them to the Government.


Universities (Support)

5. Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)

To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Government is considering to further support Scotland’s universities, in light of reports that the University of the West of Scotland reported a multimillion pound deficit in the last financial year, with other universities across Scotland in a similar financial position. (S6F-03906)

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The University of the West of Scotland wrote to the Minister for Higher and Further Education in January regarding its organisational change project and multiyear recovery plan, which are seeking to return the university to reporting a surplus in 2026-27. The Scottish Funding Council, on behalf of the Government, will continue to work closely with the university as it pursues that plan.

I greatly value the contribution made by our universities. That is why we are investing, in the budget, more than £1.1 billion in university teaching and research, and it is why we announced an additional £15 million of financial transactions for the Scottish Funding Council in February to support the sector.

Jamie Greene

I give credit to the staff at the UWS, but I also give credit to the 40,000 staff right across the higher education sector in Scotland. The reality is that the shocking news from the University of Dundee this week came as a bitter blow to staff, but it is really no surprise to anyone, because the current state of university finances has been a long time coming. Eight out of Scotland’s 18 universities are currently reporting deficits, which total more than £220 million.

This week, Chris Deerin of the think tank Reform Scotland described recent events as “a wake-up call”. He is right. He perfectly sums up what now needs to happen. Politicians, the Government and the Opposition need to come together and accept some fundamental truths. Their inaction will result in more jobs, courses and even institutions going under.

Given that a quarter of university funding comes from public funding, is it time to grab the bull by the horns? Will the First Minister agree to calls from right across the sector that now is the time for an urgent, grown-up, cross-party and level-headed conversation about the current funding model? Our world-leading universities want it, need it and deserve it.

The First Minister

Mr Greene knows that I take very seriously the issues around university funding. I also take seriously the points put by him with, as always, courtesy and respect. However, I have to point out that the Conservatives voted against the Government’s recent budget and the £1.1 billion that we are investing in the university sector and called for tax cuts that would have reduced the available public funding by £1 billion.

With the greatest of respect, I do not think that the Conservatives have been demonstrating in any way, shape or form a grown-up contribution to the discussion that is taking place—[Interruption.] I know that the Conservatives do not like me pointing out such home truths, but I will continue to point out the home truths, because the Conservatives are absolutely riddled—[Interruption.]

This is no way to conduct our business. Several members are interested in asking supplementary questions, and I will simply not be able to take everyone if we have this disturbance.

The First Minister

The Government will engage constructively in discussions about university finances. We do that on all such issues. The Government is immersed in discussions about the University of Dundee. I have put on record the discussions that we are having about the University of West of Scotland, which will continue in the period ahead.

Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee City West) (SNP)

I know that the First Minister shares the concern across the chamber about the situation at the University of Dundee and the proposed job losses. It would be good if the First Minister were to put on the record that, like the rest of us, he considers the proposals from the university to compulsorily sack more than 600 people—20 to 25 per cent of the workforce—to be absolutely unacceptable; that the Government will use all its efforts to ensure that that does not happen; and that we will get a new plan that works for the staff, the students and the city of Dundee.

The First Minister

I give Joe FitzPatrick the absolute assurance that the Government is engaged deeply in the issues that affect the future of the University of Dundee. We do that through the proper channels required by law, which is through the Scottish Funding Council. However, that should not be mistaken for anything other than the fact that the Government is deeply involved in discussions to ensure that the future of the University of Dundee is secure.

I represent a parliamentary constituency that adjoins Mr FitzPatrick’s constituency of Dundee City West, and I acknowledge that many of my constituents are affected by the concerns that he has put on the record. I find the university’s proposed plan deeply troubling. The Government is engaged closely in finding a way forward that will ensure that we secure the university’s future so that it can continue the formidable work that it has always done on behalf of the people of the city and of Scotland.

Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)

The First Minister has known for weeks about the scale of potential job losses at the University of Dundee. He has not been blindsided, and he cannot say that he is shocked. The question now is: when he will act? Today, Dundee’s newspaper, The Courier, says:

“The Scottish Government’s response thus far has been slow, evasive and utterly inadequate.”

With every day that goes by, the pain for families in Dundee will only get worse. What will the First Minister’s Government do, in the next seven days, to take action to save jobs and protect livelihoods in Dundee?

The First Minister

The Government will do exactly what I have just told Mr FitzPatrick: it will continue its deep and serious involvement in working with the Scottish Funding Council to support the University of Dundee. That is what the Government is doing, and will continue to do, to ensure that we secure the future of Dundee.

I know that Mr Marra wants to have all the details of what that might involve. However, a huge number of factors are relevant here, not least of which are the role of independent financial institutions, such as banks, and the fact that the University of Dundee is an independent self-governing institution. I do not run the university, and I have to respect what the law requires me to do in respecting its independence, which the Parliament has required to be the case. None of that should be interpreted as saying anything other than that this issue is right at the top of my agenda. I want to see that the future of the University of Dundee is secured, and I will do everything that I can to ensure that that is the case.

Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)

I hope that the First Minister will provide more financial support for Dundee. However, irrespective of whatever short-term support for institutions might be available, I ask him to look again at the substance of Jamie Greene’s question. There needs to be cross-party discussion about a long-term financial model. Right now, the student profile is changing, there are global pressures and there are also longer-term financial pressures. I plead with the First Minister to have cross-party discussion so that our universities can have a strong future.

Mr Rennie is in a stronger position to argue for that, because he was prepared to do the tough thing of voting for the Government’s budget earlier this year. [Interruption.]

Let us hear one another.

The First Minister

I will not tire of pointing out to the Conservatives the complete and utter hypocrisy of their demanding that we spend more money when, at the same time, they want us to cut the budget. They are beyond credibility in this Parliament. I say to Mr Rennie that we are happy to engage on issues concerning the operation and the future of the university sector in Scotland, and the Government is already engaged in on-going discussions with the sector. However, all such discussions require us to have a mature conversation about priorities. I acknowledge that Mr Rennie and his party have been prepared to do that, and I invite others in the Parliament to step up to the plate.


Healthy Life Expectancy

To ask the First Minister whether he will provide an update on how the Scottish Government is working to improve healthy life expectancy. (S6F-03900)

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The Government is committed to improving healthy life expectancy and addressing the underlying inequalities that contribute to health disparities. Tackling poverty and inequality remains the best way to improve population health outcomes and life expectancy, and the eradication of child poverty is my Government’s number 1 priority. The budget that was recently passed prioritises action to address inequality at its roots, including investment in breakfast clubs and employability initiatives, and by developing systems that will effectively remove the two-child limit.

Carol Mochan

Scotland has the highest obesity rates in the United Kingdom, which disproportionately affects our most deprived communities and harms the physical and mental wellbeing of millions of people. That hinders economic activity and costs the national health service millions of pounds each year.

The Government consulted on restricting promotions of food and drink that is high in fat, sugar and salt. The consultation closed in May 2024, yet the Parliament is still waiting for the independent analysis of the consultation responses. When will the Government publish the analysis and introduce vital regulation to stop Scotland falling even further behind?

The First Minister

The research analysis will be published shortly, and we are happy to explore the issues that it raises with Parliament.

Carol Mochan alights on an issue where we need to be prepared to have a mature discussion about the issues and the questions that are raised. She will observe the debate as much as I do and will see that when such proposals are brought forward, they are sometimes met with ferocious resistance.

I am happy to encourage a mature dialogue in Parliament about how we can take action to address the legitimate point that Carol Mochan raises, which fuels inequality in our country. It is essential that we address the issue to improve outcomes for individuals in our society.

Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)

Last month, Aberdeen City Council, North Ayrshire Council and South Lanarkshire Council teamed up with Public Health Scotland and the Institute of Health Equity for a collaboration for health equity in Scotland to introduce positive changes at a local level in health, life expectancy and quality of life. Will the First Minister outline how the Scottish Government will follow the progress of the collaboration, and will he join me in encouraging a similar roll-out to local authorities across Scotland?

The First Minister

We are pleased to be working with Professor Sir Michael Marmot and Public Health Scotland through the collaboration for health equity in Scotland. As part of the collaboration, Aberdeen City Council, North Ayrshire Council and South Lanarkshire Council will work with us over the next two years to share learning from all parts of the system and test approaches that strengthen and accelerate action to improve health and reduce health inequalities.

That valuable work will link into our upcoming population health framework, which will focus on prevention and early intervention, targeting action in the areas and communities that are most in need.

We move to general and constituency supplementary questions. Concise questions and responses will be appreciated.


NHS Grampian (Funding)

Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)

Earlier this week, it was announced that the UCAN swift urological response and evaluation—SURE—unit cancer facility at Aberdeen Royal infirmary is facing more than a year’s delay before opening. Meanwhile, NHS Grampian has the lowest number of beds per head and the worst cancer rates in Scotland, it has lost its proposed national treatment centre, and the Baird family hospital and the Aberdeen and north centre for haematology, oncology and radiotherapy—ANCHOR—centre units are massively delayed. All that is compounded by grave underfunding from this Government. Will the First Minister personally step in to address his Government’s abandonment of NHS Grampian and provide it with the funds and resources required to get the UCAN SURE unit open?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The UCAN SURE unit has been designed to provide rapid diagnosis for patients. It is intended that the unit will be taken forward within the existing resources of NHS Grampian. I am keen to make sure that there is progress in that respect at the earliest opportunity.

I also point out to Mr Kerr that if he wants more money spent on NHS Grampian, he should have voted for the Government’s budget, which he failed to do. This is just another example of how the Conservatives come to Parliament and plead for something but are not prepared to vote for it.


Energy Prices (Infrastructure Investment)

Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)

Scotland’s north-east is now home, in Blackhillock, to Europe’s largest battery, which is significantly reducing the amount of wasted clean energy from the Viking, Moray east and Beatrice offshore wind farms and will provide an estimated saving to consumers of £170 million over the next 15 years.

Meanwhile, Age Scotland research has found that three in four Scottish pensioners have lived in cold homes over the winter. Rising energy bills are continuing to heap pressure on households, and Labour’s surprise cut to the winter fuel payment has added to the difficulties that many older people in Scotland face.

Given Scotland’s huge energy potential, and further to Christine Grahame’s question on the issue, does the First Minister agree that people in Scotland should have lower bills for the energy that we generate?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

There has been an increase in energy prices since the election, when people were promised that there would be reductions in energy prices. That is a matter of deep regret. High energy prices are the single greatest driver of fuel poverty in Scotland. Those are the realities that people are wrestling with.

That is why it is important that we invest in our energy infrastructure and that what comes from that energy infrastructure is assistance in reducing the cost of energy for individuals in Scotland, so that the cost is not the burden that it is today, as Audrey Nicoll set out.


Jagtar Singh Johal

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

The First Minister will be aware of the case of my constituent Jagtar Singh Johal, who has been arbitrarily detained in India for more than seven years. He was acquitted of one of the charges at the district and sessions court in the Punjab, giving the family hope. What discussions has the First Minister had with Foreign Secretary David Lammy to bring Jagtar home?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

We have had discussions with the Foreign Secretary on this question. I personally raised the issue with the Indian Government when I was in India in previous years. As Jackie Baillie correctly says, the matter has been on-going for many years. Without prejudging proceedings in any way, I acknowledge that the initial court case must be providing welcome hope to the family. I send them my warmest wishes in the hope that that can be sustained.


Access Rights (Protection of Livestock)

Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP)

Ahead of lambing season this year, what is the Scottish Government doing to raise awareness, including in Dumfries and Galloway and in the Borders, of the consequences for owners whose out-of-control dogs chase, attack and kill—or worry—livestock when accessing the countryside, given the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 2021, which updated and strengthened the previous law?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The work that Emma Harper has undertaken on the issue is important and helps the situation. There are other steps. The Scottish outdoor access code sets out how to exercise access rights responsibly when walking dogs in the countryside. The Government and NatureScot will continue to promote responsible dog ownership across radio and social media platforms as part of the on-going communication campaigns on the issue. I hope that that will help in the situation that Emma Harper puts to me today.


Maternity Services (NHS Dumfries and Galloway)

Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)

This week, a cross-party group of MSPs met the Galloway community hospital action group to further discuss the real concerns surrounding maternity services in Dumfries and Galloway. Despite the warm, but empty, words from health ministers, action still has not been taken to ensure that women do not have to travel 70 miles to give birth. Will the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care join me and the other MSPs in the cross-party group in visiting Stranraer to hear the concerns of constituents there?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I am familiar with the issues that Mr Carson raises with me. There will be dialogue and engagement with health ministers on that question. Many of the points are related to judgments that are made about clinical safety. I hope that the Parliament accepts that the Government must take seriously the advice that we receive on clinical safety around the number of births that take place in particular areas and the degree of specialism that will be provided. I assure Mr Carson that the Government will always consider very carefully the clinical advice that we are given in that respect.


Trauma and Orthopaedic Surgery Waiting Times (NHS Dumfries and Galloway)

Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab)

My constituent John Small has been on the waiting list for knee replacement surgery in NHS Dumfries and Galloway for 14 months. John is 87 years old. Last week, he learned that he will be on that list for at least another four months. The First Minister keeps saying that things are getting better, but since April 2024, when he announced action to tackle waiting times, waits of more than 52 weeks for trauma and orthopaedic surgery in NHS Dumfries and Galloway have gone up every month.

To keep himself fit, John set up a thriving walking football group in Stranraer, working with the charity Versus Arthritis through his son, Gary, but he has had to give that up. John is playing his part by trying to keep active, and he deserves a lot better. When will the Scottish Government play its part and tackle those appalling and rising waiting times for surgery?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I am grateful to Colin Smyth’s constituent for the efforts that he has made to keep himself fit and healthy. That is a good example to set.

The Government has put in place additional funding to national health service boards to deliver more procedures during this financial year. The target was to deliver 64,000 procedures, and we have delivered more than 75,500 surgeries and procedures to the end of January 2025, which means that we have exceeded the original plans on delivery.

As a consequence of the Government’s budget and the work that is under way through the NHS improvement plan, we are expanding the capacity that is available in the health service, we are expanding the volume of procedures that are being undertaken and we are taking action to reduce the waiting times that Colin Smyth has asked me about today.


Isaac Tocher

Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

The First Minister will remember that I have previously raised the case of my constituent Isaac Tocher, a seven-year-old child who has a brain disorder and autism, which has left him with the developmental age of a one-year-old. At school, Isaac was segregated and became distressed. He was left alone for so long that he banged his head off a wall to the point of injury. The injuries that Isaac sustained during that incident have left him with severe headaches and on constant pain medication, which he takes at school and at home.

It has been a year, and Isaac is still unable to get an appointment with a paediatrician. He has been let down at school and is now being let down by the health service. Will the First Minister agree to meet me and the Tocher family to see whether we can get positive outcomes for Isaac?

I am concerned to hear the details that Roz McCall puts to me. I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to meet her to discuss what more can be done to address that particular case.

The Presiding Officer

That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will now be a short suspension to allow those leaving the chamber and the gallery to do so.

12:46 Meeting suspended.  

12:49 On resuming—