Official Report 932KB pdf
I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 11.2.4 of standing orders, that decision time be brought forward to now. I invite the Minister for Parliamentary Business to move such a motion.
Motion moved,
That, under Rule 11.2.4, Decision Time be brought forward to 4:52 pm.—[Jamie Hepburn]
Motion agreed to.
Decision Time
There are three questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that motion S6M-15783, in the name of Siobhian Brown, on the Judicial Factors (Scotland) Bill at stage 3, be agreed to.
As this is a motion to pass the bill, the question must be decided by division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.
16:53 Meeting suspended.
We move to the division on motion S6M-15783, in the name of Siobhian Brown, on the Judicial Factors (Scotland) Bill at stage 3. Members should cast their votes now.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As you will have seen, I have had some technical issues. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr McMillan. We will ensure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not get on to the app. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Ms Dunbar. We will ensure that that is recorded.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay]
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn]
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn]
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division on motion S6M-15783, in the name of Siobhian Brown, is: For 119, Against 0, Abstentions 0.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament agrees that the Judicial Factors (Scotland) Bill be passed.
The Judicial Factors (Scotland) Bill is therefore passed. [Applause.]
The next question is, that amendment S6M-15782.2, in the name of Tess White, which seeks to amend motion S6M-15782, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on pathways to global human rights: towards a stronger human rights culture in Scotland, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division on amendment S6M-15782.2, in the name of Tess White, is: For 28, Against 89, Abstentions 0.
Amendment disagreed to.
The question is, that motion S6M-15782, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on pathways to global human rights: towards a stronger human rights culture in Scotland, be agreed to.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament recognises 10 December 2024 as Human Rights Day; supports this year’s theme of “Our Rights, Our Future, Right Now”; agrees that human rights present a route to a more peaceful, equitable and sustainable world; recognises that this year marks the 75th anniversary of the formation of the Council of Europe, and supports its vital mission to uphold human rights, democracy and the rule of law in Europe; celebrates important steps to advance rights in Scotland, including the commencement of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Act 2024; commends the role of human rights organisations, human rights defenders and wider civil society in driving change and challenging everyone to do better, and reaffirms its own commitment to strengthen, respect, protect and fulfil human rights through both practical action and future legislation.
That concludes decision time.
Post Office Closures
The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-15654, in the name of Kenneth Gibson, on opposition to the Post Office closure plan. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament notes the opposition to the proposal set out in the Post Office’s Transformation Plan on 13 November 2024 to consult on closing its 115 remaining crown branches; understands that these proposals would involve the closure of 10 branches in Scotland, including the branch in Saltcoats town centre; notes the opposition of the Communication Workers Union, which has characterised the proposal as being “as tone deaf as it is immoral”; believes that crown branches provide a range of vital services that are not available in all Post Offices; notes the view that, at a time when more and more shops and services are leaving the high street, there is a case for more crown branches, not fewer, and conveys its sympathy to the estimated 1,000 Post Office employees whose jobs are now at risk.
17:03
I thank all the members who signed my motion. In particular, I thank Tim Eagle, Ross Greer and Liam McArthur, who have post offices that are threatened in their regions and constituency, and who signed the motion so that it could be debated today. Unfortunately, my colleague Christine Grahame, who had hoped to speak in the debate, has been called away suddenly through illness—I hope that she makes a swift recovery. I am also grateful to Adam Stachura at Age Scotland for the briefing on the importance of post offices to older people.
The issue affects all parts of the country, and our support for our local post offices should transcend party lines. This year’s United Kingdom Labour manifesto said:
“The Post Office is an essential service in communities across the country. Labour will look for ways to strengthen the Post Office network, in consultation with sub-postmasters, trade unions and customers, and support the development of new products, services and business models”.
I could not agree more. It is therefore disappointing that, within a few short months of gaining office, Labour reneged on that commitment.
For our communities, rural or urban, post offices are a focal point. According to 2022 research by Citizens Advice, 18 per cent of people visit a post office every week, while 45 per cent do so at least once a month. In rural areas, the figures are even higher. In addition to providing essential services, post offices help to address financial and social exclusion. For older and disabled people, carers and those without the internet, post offices are an essential face-to-face service without parallel. The benefits that the Post Office network provides are immeasurable and are not just economic but social. The human and financial costs of a community losing its post office will surely be more than whatever subsidy was on offer.
Between 1999 and 2015, more than 900 postmasters were falsely accused of theft and fraud because of errors in the Horizon information technology system, which was supplied by Fujitsu. After all the ruined careers, financial devastation and even wrongful imprisonment, we now see that clearly as one of the gravest miscarriages of justice in modern British history.
On 13 November 2024, Post Office chair Nigel Railton set out the organisation’s transformation plan in the wake of the Horizon scandal. In an effort to rebuild trust and financial stability, the plan sets out goals to increase postmaster remuneration, boost their share of revenues and enhance the role of postmasters in decision making. That would be uncontroversial, were it not for the fact that the proposals require the closure of all the remaining Crown offices to balance the books, with 115 Post Office branches, including 10 in Scotland, and 1,000 post office employees now under threat.
Of course, closure proposals cannot be viewed in isolation. The number of Crown branches has steadily declined since the 1980s, as the Post Office shifted towards franchise and agency-managed branches as a way of reducing costs. That process has accelerated in recent years—between 2013 and 2023, the number of Crown branches fell by 69 per cent. That matters, because Crown branches offer a far more extensive range of services than do sub-post offices, such as Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency photocard renewal, foreign currency, travel insurance, identity services and passport applications, to name but a few.
Saltcoats post office, in my constituency, has been at its location on Chapelwell Street since 1971. The previous post office building was further up the same street and opened in 1909. It was later taken over by the Royal Bank of Scotland until that branch closed, in 2018. The potential closure of the post office has sparked widespread alarm among Saltcoats residents and business owners alike. For 11 and a half decades, Chapelwell Street post office has provided essential services that underpin both daily life and the local economy. Its loss would not only sever a vital link to banking and postal facilities but deepen the challenges that are already faced by the town.
Stephen McAllister, owner of the award-winning Kandy Bar bakery, described the post office as
“the lifeblood of the area”
and added that, without it, many local businesses would struggle to survive. He highlighted that, with banks and building societies closing in town centres, the post office in Saltcoats has become a vital resource. Banking for the Kandy Bar bakeries in Kilwinning and West Kilbride is undertaken in Saltcoats. Mr McAllister warned that, if the post office were to close, that would be a devastating blow to the local community and a tragedy for the area.
Is Mr Gibson aware that one of the post offices that are under threat and whose future is in question is in Queensgate, in the centre of Inverness, which forms part of the heart of Inverness and is essential for many senior citizens? The post office brings them into the town and brings life into the town. Does the member think that it might be better for the people in the Post Office to address the salaries that they pay themselves? The chief executive got £816,000 in 2021-22, which was down to a paltry £573,000 in 2022-23. Should they not start at the top if they want to save money?
The member makes an excellent point.
The team behind the Metro nightclub in Saltcoats also expressed concern about the potential closure of the town’s post office and said that it would be a
“Massive loss to the community.”
The team highlighted the challenges that businesses already face due to the departure of banks from the town and noted that the post office is crucial for tasks such as depositing money and obtaining change. The team warned that the closure would make it significantly harder for businesses to operate efficiently locally and called it a fundamental part of the community that must be preserved. The team also pointed to the important role that the post office plays for older residents, as Fergus Ewing just remarked, many of whom use it to pay bills, withdraw cash and save money for family occasions. The team noted that, for some,
“It’s more than just a post office,”
and that visiting it is a vital part of their routine.
Nationally, the reaction from the Communication Workers Union, which represents Post Office staff, has been scathing. It described the closure plan and the threat to 1,000 jobs as being as
“tone deaf as it is immoral.”
The CWU called on the UK Government to intervene and said:
“Labour has to ensure it does not become the Government that targeted elderly people with the removal of the winter fuel allowance and then saw crucial services they rely on removed.”
I fear that the CWU will be disappointed. Despite its donations to the Labour Party and Labour MPs, which were worth more than £500,000 this year, barely a whimper has come from Labour. Indeed, the CWU donated £6,000 to Labour’s recent Westminster campaign in the North Ayrshire and Arran constituency. So far, it seems that it has had little or no return.
Disappointingly, not a single Labour MSP signed today’s motion, and only one is present in the chamber. MSPs Bibby, Clark, Mochan, Rowley, Smyth, Sweeney and Villalba, along with the current Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian Murray MP, all denounced the closure of local post offices during the era of the wicked Tory Government but seem a little more coy now. I am tempted to quote them, but we will save their blushes and move on.
The UK Labour Government minister who is responsible for post offices, Gareth Thomas MP, has refused to give any assurances about the future of Crown branches. I will leave it to CWU members to look at that tepid response and decide whether their weekly political levy is money well spent.
The closure of the last 115 Crown post offices would not simply represent a loss of essential services; it would symbolise the neglect of our town centres. At a time when towns are crying out for regeneration, Crown branches should be serving as vital components that draw both people and businesses back to our high streets. We should be talking about their extension, not their abolition. Our communities deserve far better than the proposed managed decline of a valuable public asset.
Ultimately, it is the UK Labour Government that is required to sign off on the proposals. I have written to it, and I trust that the Scottish Government is lobbying it hard to think again. The UK Government must now listen to the voices of communities, business owners and workers and lift the threat of closure from the post offices in Saltcoats and other affected towns. Our communities and their post offices deserve much better than to be the last victims of the Horizon scandal.
I call Bob Doris.
17:10
My apologies for taking a moment, Deputy Presiding Officer—I am working from my iPad, which is unlike me, so let us see how we get on.
I commend Kenny Gibson for bringing to the chamber this debate on the leaked plans to review and reduce Crown post offices in Scotland and across the UK. It gives me the opportunity to highlight that the Crown post office in Springburn shopping centre, in my constituency, is one of the branches that could be facing the axe. I find that deeply worrying for several reasons.
I will set out the most fundamental reason. My constituency of Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn now has no high street bank and has not had one for some time. Each time a bank closes—three have closed in Springburn in recent years—the banks indicate that they will work hard to innovate and provide alternative banking opportunities for those who are most vulnerable or who are at risk of financial exclusion. Each time, however, the banks pack up and head out of town, and the promises melt away incredibly quickly.
In that context, I know that the prospect of the Crown post office in Springburn closing fills many of my constituents with great dread, concern and alarm. The people of Springburn do not expect the UK Government’s Post Office to treat them as shoddily as the UK banks have done. That post office is one of the very few vital anchor services that bring local residents into the town centre to access core financial services and a wide range of other services. It also brings them to the town centre to spend their disposable incomes—which are often under strain—in the area.
The closure of the Crown post office would be not only a major blow for those who rely on its services but a body blow to the town centre and the shopping centre that sits in it. It would also be a body blow to the local economy and local businesses, and to many of our elderly and our vulnerable.
As a local MSP and a trustee of the local charity Spirit of Springburn, I want the services and amenities in Springburn to be enhanced, not further diminished. Having looked at the criteria under which potential decisions on Crown post offices may be made, I can see absolutely nothing that acknowledges the vital role that the post office plays in the precarious town centre environment and the local economy. The criteria are completely silent on the matter and do not take it into account at all.
I have written to and met Post Office representatives, and I thank them for their engagement. It is clear that the current plans are a direct consequence of the five-year strategy that the Post Office has set out. The strategy process commenced under the previous Conservative Government but was actually signed off, actioned and approved under the current UK Labour Government. I understand that the cost savings to be delivered by potentially closing post offices are proposed, in part, to help to source funds to better reward postmasters. I appreciate that there may very well be a need for that, but it should not be done on the backs of the communities and towns that rely on their Crown post offices to access core financial and other services, nor on the backs of the vulnerable in my constituency. Those who live in such communities are less likely to have a bank account in the first place, let alone access to online banking or the ability to apply online for a variety of services that are only otherwise available at a Crown post office.
Mr Gibson has written to Gareth Thomas MP, the UK Government parliamentary under-secretary of state for the matter, and I intend to do the same. I hope that we can do so on a cross-party basis—I include Labour MSPs in that—to call on the UK Government to halt the process and ask it to think again.
I asked the Post Office about the number of customers who use the post office in Springburn and about the amount of transactions and the type of services that are used. The Post Office genuinely tried to be as helpful as possible in responding to me, but it was unable to give me official data for public consumption because of commercial confidentiality. I, and my constituents, need that data to plan a way ahead to retain the post office.
We know that the post office is very busy; I suspect that it serves many hundreds of customers every single week and processes many more vital transactions. The banks have closed right across Maryhill and Springburn. This time, the UK Government can do something to stop core financial services in my constituency being terminated and dragged out of Springburn. It must act now, and I commend Kenny Gibson for bringing the debate to the chamber.
17:15
I thank Kenny Gibson for bringing this important debate to the chamber. Post office employees are right to be concerned and very worried about the forthcoming consultation, and it is right that they be fully consulted on the next move.
As Kenny Gibson and others have said, we would not know about the potential closures, had it not been for the fact that the information was leaked: it was not the Labour Government, nor was it the Post Office that brought the potential closures to the public’s attention. We must also remember that a key part of any consultation should be the customers who rely on the post office network throughout Scotland—in particular, in the South Scotland region, which I represent.
Following the announcement, I was contacted by several residents of Haddington, including from the Haddington central tenants and residents association, who expressed their alarm that a very popular and well-used local post office—as Kenny Gibson described, it is much more than simply a post office—is under threat. It is a vital resource for people in the community, who rely on it not just for postal services but for banking, and as a community hub.
It is also vitally important to remember that, in areas such as East Lothian, many banks have closed in recent years and there is now an increased emphasis on post offices as a source of cash and banking services. That is particularly the case in areas with an older demographic, such as Haddington and East Lothian.
On Friday, I visited the new banking hub at Jedburgh, which is operated by a postmaster but is run by Cash Access UK. It offers services including cash withdrawal, payment of bills and so on, but it does not offer a post office service specifically.
I do not know whether Craig Hoy agrees with me, but I think that it would be a great idea, and we should be campaigning, to ensure that we have proper banking hubs with combined post office services.
Rachael Hamilton is absolutely correct, and where post offices and banks are at risk, it would surely be logical to bring postal and banking services under one roof.
Ahead of the debate, Age Scotland sent me an informative briefing on how people aged over 50 view services in their local communities. Facilities that are viewed as being essential within 20 minutes of home include a bank, according to 32 per cent of those surveyed; a post office, at 23 per cent; and community spaces, at 23 per cent. The post office in Haddington fulfils all those functions, because it is a post office, for some customers it is a bank, and for many customers it is a source of community engagement.
As banks continue to retreat, it will be increasingly important that post offices take up the slack. It is also important that we remember that Crown post offices provide services in addition to those that are provided by banking hubs or by sub-postmasters. We must, therefore, do everything that we can to try to defend them, because otherwise people have to go online or engage in longer journeys. That counts against the climate change targets that we are setting and is simply impossible for some older people or people in rural areas who still lack access to high-speed broadband.
When I spoke to the Post Office about the closure of the branch in Haddington, it said that that is being done to make savings and so that it can look at how it could fund sub-postmasters in the future. However, it would be an absolute tragedy if, because of the mistakes that the Post Office has made in the past, customers were to be impacted into the future.
With regard to the post office in Haddington, I was informed that there are three potential outcomes. One would be outright closure, the second would be to try to find somebody else to take over the franchise of that post office and the third would be a potential move to another location. I would be totally opposed to the closure, and I question whether moving or closing such a popular and well-used facility would be in the interests of the town.
It is clear that the services are vitally important for everyone in our communities, and especially for people who are elderly or disabled and those who live in rural or deprived areas. I say to the residents of Haddington and the neighbouring villages that I will continue to work with the Post Office and with stakeholders and the community to ensure that they continue to have access to local postal banking services. Those services are vital now, and they will be vital into the future. I look forward to working with the community to make sure that the Post Office does not close that important local resource.
17:20
I start by wishing Christine Grahame well. Despite her attempt to mow me down as she came out of the canteen earlier today, I wish her a speedy recovery.
I also congratulate Kenny Gibson on bringing the debate to the chamber, and I thank him for his kind comments earlier. I am not sure that I would go as far as to suggest that we need more Crown post offices, but, at the very least, retaining what we have seems to be highly desirable. The Kirkwall Crown post office in my constituency is under threat. It is integral to the local community, for many of the reasons that Kenny Gibson set out in his opening remarks. I will come to that later.
Bob Doris made a valid point about the issue being not just the process itself but the way in which information about the closures leaked out. That has not helped a difficult situation—indeed, it has made it considerably worse. We had the announcement, then quickly thereafter we had clarification that has only sown seeds of confusion. It has certainly created uncertainty for staff and customers, as well as in the wider communities that are served by the Crown post offices that appear on the list.
It has also, perhaps, resulted in a loss of faith. Whatever consultation now takes place, I think that there will be an understandable sense that the results and the outcome of that consultation will have been prejudged. That is a reflection, or a result, of the way in which the Post Office has managed the information flow on the issue. Alistair Carmichael and I met very recently with the Post Office on the back of the announcement, and we were given many of the assurances that I suspect other colleagues will have received, either directly or in correspondence.
Another fair point that Bob Doris made related to the lack of detailed data about how each of the Crown post offices is performing. From my perspective, the Crown post office in Kirkwall has always appeared to be very busy, particularly—but certainly not exclusively—at this time of year. It is therefore difficult for me, and for many of my constituents, to understand why that post office has found itself on a Post Office hit list.
On the consultation itself, we were provided with assurances that it would be meaningful. It certainly has not happened early, so the Post Office has its work cut out to try to make up for lost ground.
As I said, the post office to which I refer is itself enormously busy. It is—as Kenneth Gibson highlighted—the lifeblood of the community. It is important not just for Kirkwall, but for the wider Orkney community, given that it is the last remaining Crown post office in Orkney. It is crucial to local businesses. On the back of the news emerging, I have been contacted by many constituents, including many business owners. One got in touch with me the other week to say:
“the company I manage has mountains of regulatory post that is sent to clients from our local office each day”.
The prospect of that service not being available in the same way or to the same extent as it is currently has implications for the wider business community in Orkney.
The post office is also a crucial facility for personal customers, given the services that it provides in relation to passports, driving licences and so on. That concern, too, has been raised by many constituents. Yes, those services are increasingly available online but—as Age Scotland and many constituents have pointed out—that is, in many instances, not without its challenges.
The other service that is provided by the Crown post office in Kirkwall, almost uniquely, is the foreign currency exchange. For an economy that is so reliant on tourism, in particular through online routes, the availability of that service is fundamental, and there is a real concern about the potential loss of spending in Kirkwall and the wider Orkney community. As it happens, the Crown post office is positioned almost directly opposite the tourist information centre, which has also been earmarked for closure. The situation is creating uncertainty in a community that relies so heavily on those post office services.
The Post Office needs to heed the voices of customers, its staff and the wider community. There needs to be a meaningful consultation and, I hope, a rethink of the position so that the vital services that the Crown post office in Kirkwall provides can continue long into the future.
I call Carol Mochan, who joins us remotely, to be followed by Audrey Nicoll.
17:25
I thank Kenny Gibson for bringing this topic to the chamber.
I applaud the fine work of the Communication Workers Union—the CWU—on the matter, as it continues to boldly stand up for its members against the Post Office’s decisions, which are causing, as we have heard tonight, serious stress and concern for many families just before Christmas, while they are working hard to keep postal services moving. To add to Liam McArthur’s point, I note that they are busy throughout the year.
As we have heard, the decision to close the remaining 115 Crown post office branches across the UK was taken without prior consultation of trade unions, and the CWU informs us that it has not even been given sight of the strategic review document that led to the decision. That is unacceptable.
Furthermore, the decision was deliberately leaked, as we have heard, in order to get ahead of any press or official scrutiny. Post office workers were waking up and reading about the potential end of their jobs in a newspaper or watching it on television. I reiterate that that is simply unacceptable.
Ten of the Crown post offices are in Scotland, where the sector is already heavily depleted, which has left many communities without direct access to a post office. The branches, which are often the larger ones, are a lifeline for many people. However, more local post offices have been closed than most can put up with, and most sometimes struggle to find a place to do business or sort out personal affairs.
Crown post offices provide many services that are not easily accessible and available elsewhere. That is a valuable thing during a time when the high street is being cut to the bone. The decision to close branches is needless and exacerbates existing problems.
Why is it that we have spent the past decade or more stripping out post offices, thereby losing their utility and incredible community links? Has that made the country better off? Have we heard that the decisions to do that have led to greater modernisation and more stable employment? No, that is not what we have heard. It has led to an enormous amount of legal fees and to consultants raking it in, while ordinary working people suffer—as is often the case.
The current decision would decimate the post office network across the UK and will lead to 1,000 jobs being lost, including many in Scotland.
Every week, I, too, speak to constituents who are desperate for a service like the one that the post office used to provide. Not only was the post office an important utility for business and families, but it provided a community hub with staff who would take the time to offer genuine help.
I fear that we are approaching the days when post offices will be quite rare. I have no doubt that workers and the trade unions will be standing against the decision, and I will, of course, be supporting them and their rights. This is no way to treat the people who have shouldered the burden of pressure that has been placed on post office workers for many years. The review must be reconsidered, and I will support the CWU in its work alongside the workforce.
I again thank Kenny Gibson for bringing the matter to the chamber.
17:29
I, too, congratulate my colleague Kenneth Gibson on bringing the debate to the chamber.
As has been referenced, the UK Government owns the Post Office and it has announced that more than 100 branches could close, with the possible loss of hundreds of jobs. That comes as a bitter blow for postmasters and the communities that they serve tirelessly, at a time when local services have already been fading from high streets, town centres and villages. As the motion says,
“at a time when more and more shops and services are leaving the high street, there is a case for more crown branches, not fewer”.
The post office network provides critical services that go beyond just post, such as access to cash, banking and Government services such as driving licence renewal, albeit that some of those services have declined in recent years and have moved online. Many of my small-business constituents, including creators and artists, depend on local post offices to send products to customers who are further afield.
There is something comforting about the red and yellow Post Office sign above a shop door. You know that, when you go in, there will be a welcome human interaction; the postmaster will know exactly what you need; and you can also pick up nice birthday card, some brown wrapping paper, string or a Jiffy bag while you are at it.
In my constituency, the number of post offices has reduced to only three, which serve a population of around 79,000. Although my constituency will not be impacted by the future closure plans, I agree with other members that consultation and a rationale for closures have been lacking.
I read with interest, therefore, some of the rationale for the review of Post Office services that was set out in the Westminster debate last month. The Post Office was described as
“simply not fit for purpose”,
with
“a toxic culture in head office and years of under-investment.”—[Official Report, House of Commons, 13 November 2024; Vol 756, c 806.]
It was stated that “significant cultural change” and rebuilding of trust are required to ensure that the needs of postmasters and customers are met.
It is no secret, of course, that the business is facing commercial challenges, and it is therefore not unreasonable to suggest that change is needed. However, the idea that the possible loss of 115 branches and around 1,000 jobs is the solution is devastating. It raises many questions, including on the process of consultation, as members have highlighted tonight.
I understand that postmasters, trade unions and other stakeholders will be consulted—and rightly so—but it is disappointing that the communities that rely on these services have not been specifically mentioned. One significant group that will undoubtedly be impacted is older people, and I am grateful to Age Scotland for its helpful briefing, in which it makes a range of important points.
I will touch on a couple of those points. The first is on facilities in post offices. Age Scotland says that it is
“concerned that the closure of these branches which are in easy to access locations, especially in the more remote and rural areas, may mean older people face challenges travelling further to access the services they need.”
It states that,
“without improving the ‘alternative branches’ that people are to use when the crown branches close, it risks further exclusion and increases inequality for a considerable proportion of the population”.
On digital skills and access to the internet, Age Scotland points out:
“There are a significant number of older people in Scotland who are either not online or lack the basic digital skills to use the internet safely ... Face to face services such as those at Post Offices are essential for older people.”
Finally, it notes:
“There is a digital access gap between the most and least deprived parts of Scotland.”
There are a lot of points of concern there.
In conclusion, I hope that the UK Government, rather than seeking to reduce post office provision in Scotland, takes the opportunity to strengthen the role of post offices in our communities so that they can offer more local services, meeting the needs of postmasters and customers, including businesses, and bring a modernised and fit-for-purpose Post Office back to our high streets and communities.
17:33
I thank Kenny Gibson for bringing the debate to the chamber. I almost agreed with him until he had a wee dig at the Tory Government, but I will let that slip this time, because, for most of us, the issue transcends party lines. I, too, was shocked to see the full list of planned closures that was put forward by the Post Office recently.
In the Highlands and Islands, there are three post offices that are under threat, in Inverness, Kirkwall and Stornoway, two of which Fergus Ewing and Liam McArthur have mentioned. Two of those—in Kirkwall and Stornoway—are in vulnerable island communities that are already suffering from previous losses of services and are struggling with rural depopulation. I know, from the contacts that I have had with local people in Stornoway, that the proposals are very unpopular.
The Stornoway post office is centrally located within the town, making it convenient for all service users. If it closes, the community will be left with post office facilities housed in filling stations, community shops and so on, making them less accessible. Although it is good that something will remain, residents have described the proposal as a retrograde step for an island population that sees the post office as an essential link to the mainland for goods and services. Islanders are upset, and so they should be. A founding principle of the Post Office is that it is a national institution that provides a range of services to all our communities regardless of their geographical location.
Politicians across the Parliament have repeatedly highlighted the unfairness around parcel delivery costs. Well-connected mainland locations are considered to be remote in the eyes of far too many companies, which means huge postal charges for the delivery of goods that are ordered online, and they are a curse to local businesses who want to be competitive in online sales. It remains a source of significant frustration to me that my constituents are disadvantaged in that way. Fair parcel delivery pricing should be the norm in the UK. It is unacceptable to me that it is not. Anything that further challenges the sending and receiving of parcels can only be a bad thing for my island communities and my constituents in Stornoway and Kirkwall.
I want to mention the stepping stones mentality of closures. A local councillor in Stornoway pointed out to me that, when TSB closed its Stornoway branch, the suggested alternative for people who wanted to carry out their banking transactions there was the post office. “What now for customers?” I wonder. Will there be another option, perhaps, whereby we hop to the next stepping stone and find out whether that will stay open?
I agree with Rachael Hamilton’s point about banking hubs. Link Scheme has done some good work there, but we all need to come together to make sure that all of our communities have the access to banking and post offices that they need. I urge the Post Office to think carefully about any closures in Scotland, to engage fully with the communities that it serves and, most importantly, to look after our islands.
17:36
I am now in the fifth decade of knowing Kenneth Gibson as a friend and, subsequently, as a colleague. Without wanting to butter him up, I can safely say that, having known hundreds, if not thousands, of public servants in elected positions, I have not come across any who work with such assiduousness and diligence as my friend Kenny. Younger members have an awful lot to learn from Mr Gibson—most of it useful.
The debate that we are having today is another example of that. Across a relatively sparsely attended chamber—there is no Green member to defend the post offices, which is a shame—a wide range of arguments has been expressed. I do not think that I should repeat them; rather, I will make a few additional points.
In my constituency, Queensgate is the beating heart of Inverness. Anyone who is familiar with Inverness will know that it is just opposite the Victorian market, whose clientele are largely senior citizens. For them, coming to the centre of Inverness, which is now a city, is a social experience as well as a visit to the post office. The bus services are right outside the post office, so those who do not have access to a car can easily attend the post office and then go and have a coffee or a drink with their friends or pick up something from the market. The post office brings a huge number of people into the town and is part of its social life.
That is where the post office differs from the banks. One can understand that banks have a commercial purpose and that they are commercial companies that are run for profit, but we thought that the post office was different. We thought that it was primarily a public service—but not now.
I want to make a different point. Carol Mochan made the point that the strategic review that was leaked on 13 November has not even been supplied to the CWU. I bet that the UK Government has it—that is the way that it works. The Government will have been given it, so why has it kept it a secret? It is a fair question to ask. It is a shame that there are no Labour front benchers here to enlighten us. If the UK Government has it, why has it kept it a secret? Is the UK Government now on the side of the Post Office bosses?
I will turn to the bosses. I have already said—but it is worth repeating—that Mr Read was paid £816,000 in 2021-2022. What I did not say was that £415,000 of that was a salary and the other £400,000 was bonuses. He paid back £54,000, which he said was the proportion attributable to the Post Office inquiry. Many, particularly those of us who are familiar with the Post Office’s serial injustice—the most serious, widespread, disgraceful and despicable injustice in modern times—would ask how he could take that amount of money home and save face. That is a complete mystery to me. In fact, the salary was apparently not enough for that gentleman, and another boss argued on his behalf that he should get even more. That is despicable. It is not only in this situation that such things happen. I believe that, in Scotland, there are more than 1,000 people in public service who are paid more than £100,000. That is one Scottish regiment that is unlikely to be disbanded any time soon.
Many members have made useful points about the additional services that post offices could provide. Rachael Hamilton, Audrey Nicoll and Bob Doris spoke about ways in which the Post Office could expand. Is it not time that it used a bit of imagination? Why not share offices with other services that the public need to access, such as law centres or citizens advice bureaux, which could and do have positions in other public service locations, such as hospitals? Why not seek out others to share the overheads and costs of a centralised building? Why not think out of the box? Why not offer a wider range of services, as others have said, particularly when the range of, and access to, banks and alternatives in city centre retail areas is shrinking in front of our eyes and city centres are dying on their feet?
I was pleased to make the decision to take part in the debate at somewhat short notice. Like Mr Gibson, I do my best to stand up for my constituents, although perhaps not with quite the same unremitting vigour that my friend Mr Gibson has displayed over several decades.
Thank you, Mr Ewing. I ask the Minister for Public Finance, Ivan McKee, to respond to the debate.
17:42
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank Kenneth Gibson for bringing this important issue to the chamber. Speaking as one of the younger members whom Fergus Ewing referred to, I recognise that there is much that I can continue to learn from Kenny Gibson.
First, I recognise Fergus Ewing’s comments about the public sector more generally. Members can rest assured that that issue and many others are within the scope of the work that I am taking forward on public service reform.
Access to a post office is a vital lifeline for communities across Scotland, particularly rural communities, and for vulnerable or digitally excluded consumers. Any reduction in branch numbers will impact on access to essential services, which is why the Scottish Government will argue whole-heartedly against post office closures.
Post offices and postal services are reserved to the United Kingdom Government. However, when the news of potential closures first came to our attention, the Scottish Government immediately sought reassurance from the Post Office about the potential impact on the people of Scotland. My officials have long-standing good relations with the Post Office, which has advised that no final decisions have been taken yet on the outcome of its strategic review.
There is therefore a good opportunity to set out the Scottish Government’s position on the role of the Post Office in a dynamic and modern economy as a cornerstone of the postal and delivery sector, including a role in providing other crucial services to our communities.
It is perfectly legitimate to review business operations and to ensure that those are on a sustainable and successful footing. Not too long ago, in 2017, the Post Office and UK banks reached an industry-wide agreement to increase the range of banking services that are available in post office branches. Post offices now operate a wide range of critical services such as savings accounts, pensions, benefits and tax credits, bill payments, foreign money and travel insurance. That change took place as part of efforts to reduce the impact of banks shutting their branches due to more people opting to use online or mobile banking. However, operating such an important service comes with a level of responsibility to the people whom it serves. Just this month, the British Retail Consortium published data that shows that cash transactions have
“increased for the second consecutive year”,
showing that access to cash is increasingly important for many.
Members across the chamber represent constituents who will suffer as the closures go ahead. Scotland has a significant number of rural post offices that are perceived as less viable than those in urban areas and thus as requiring a higher level of subsidy. Any closure of a local post office could, in many cases, mean the shutting of the only reliable route for receiving parcels and mail, along with other essential services, such as those that I described.
Driving economic growth is a central mission of the Government, and we need sustainable and successful businesses, large and small, to remain commercially viable. I am aware that directly managed branches are loss making and that a long-standing commitment exists to move to a fully franchise-based delivery model. However, the first step should be to explore how post offices, which are a vital lifeline to rural and island communities in particular, can be turned into profit-making enterprises and, in time, transition to a franchise model. The fact that they are critical infrastructure for so many makes those post offices even more important, not less. It is therefore incumbent on the Post Office, which is funded primarily by the UK Government, to make decisions that support their viability, not to close them down, losing jobs and services.
I recognise that both the Post Office and Royal Mail have faced stark choices due to the rise of online delivery firms. Thankfully, both organisations have committed to working together to face that challenge head on. In 2020, they signed a new commercial agreement, known as the second mails distribution agreement, which came into force in March 2021 and will operate until at least March 2032. The purpose of the agreement is to offer consumers access to a wider number of operators than was previously the case, improving competition in the parcels market. Improving facilities for secure pick-up can also reduce the number of unsuccessful deliveries—an obvious source of consumer frustration—and allow people to make arrangements for parcel collection that suit their own schedules. That is an example of both organisations making decisions that will benefit the consumer.
The fact remains, however, that closing the 10 remaining directly managed branches in Scotland will not benefit the consumer or, in my view, the Post Office. I am pleased that the Post Office remains open and committed to dialogue on the matter, given the tangible impact that closures will have on the lives of many people, particularly older people, who might be less likely to use online services.
I agree with everything that the minister has said so far. The point that I made in my speech and that Bob Doris made in his contribution was about the way in which the information got into the public domain. Notwithstanding the commitment that has been made to consult, does the minister feel that the process has been made immeasurably more difficult by the fact that many people will just assume that the conclusion of that consultation is a fait accompli?
I absolutely recognise the point that Liam McArthur has made. I will write to Gareth Thomas, who is the relevant UK Government minister, following this debate to raise the points that have been made, including Liam McArthur’s point. I take the opportunity to recognise the many valuable contributions that members across the chamber have made in the debate. As I have said, I am pleased that the Post Office has indicated that it will remain open and committed to dialogue on the matter—notwithstanding the point that Liam McArthur effectively made.
What I have described is an organisation that can and should evolve to meet the needs of communities. Finding ways to make a business relevant to the people whom it is intended to serve is the foundation of commercial viability. There are more than 1,300 post offices in Scotland and only 10 are centrally owned. That number might seem small and insignificant to those sitting in Post Office headquarters, but the impact of their closure on the everyday lives of people across the country would be hugely detrimental. The fact that the post office is so crucial to those communities is a mark of the organisation’s success and that of the women and men who work in post offices and who deserve to have clarity over the future of their jobs. Post offices offer a lifeline that must be maintained, regardless of whether they are centrally or franchisee owned.
The Scottish Government stands ready to work constructively with the UK Government, the Post Office and other stakeholders to ensure that consumers, local communities and businesses have access to the facilities that they need. We cannot let those communities and those workers down. I call on the UK Government and the Post Office to ensure that that does not happen.
Meeting closed at 17:49.Air ais
Human Rights