Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 3, 2024

Official Report 939KB pdf

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Community Cohesion

The next item of business is a statement by John Swinney on community cohesion.

14:25  

During the summer recess, everyone was affected by the dreadful, tragic deaths of three girls in Southport. On 29 July, Bebe King, aged six, Elsie Dot Stancombe, aged seven, and Alice da Silva Aguiar, aged nine, who were all attending a summer dance class, were attacked and killed. My heart goes out to the families of the girls who lost their lives. No parent should have to face the loss of a child, let alone in such appalling circumstances. Ten others were seriously injured in this horrific and shocking attack.

My thoughts have been with the community of Southport which, while facing that unthinkable tragedy, then faced further distress. Starting in Southport, sparked by false information and rumour on social media as to the identity and background of the perpetrator of the attack, communities in England and Northern Ireland were then made to endure disorder and rioting, on top of their grief and concern for those affected. That led to considerable distress to residents, significant damage to businesses and a number of casualties, including police officers who were injured in the line of duty.

Let me be clear: that activity was not and should not be classed as protest. It was violence and thuggery, pure and simple, perpetrated by those with a far-right ideology, by those who were taken in by that rhetoric and by criminals. Far from having legitimate concerns, those who were indulging in those mindless acts were doing so from a place of racism, Islamophobia and anti-immigrant sentiment. That cannot and should not be tolerated anywhere. It is absolutely unacceptable for anyone to live in fear of leaving their home, to feel nervous about sending their children to school or to be afraid to use certain services or transport. Justice has been done in the English courts, with sentences reflecting the serious criminality that was perpetrated.

To date, Scotland has not had to deal with incidents of a similar nature, despite the attempts to organise them via social media, but we must continue to be vigilant against ideologies that can lead to such violence. We cannot take the view that we may be immune from related disorder occurring on our doorsteps.

Were we to see anything similar in Scotland, our courts have robust sentencing powers available to them, to use as they see fit. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs and I have been in regular contact with Police Scotland, which remains alert to the prospect of disorder and is working with colleagues in other parts of the United Kingdom to ensure that they can respond accordingly and immediately if such response is required. I am grateful to the chief constable, and I thank her and all in Police Scotland for their continued work and commitment in keeping our communities safe.

We should rightly be proud of our history as a nation that values free speech and welcomes those who want to live and work here. We can be proud that, as a society, we celebrate, value and protect diversity in our communities. However, we must challenge those who would deny those values. We must guard against the prejudice, discrimination and misinformation that aim to incite hatred and violence. We must remember that those who seek to divide us are in a very small minority—and let me be clear that it is a small minority.

While we watched the violence unfold in communities and heard about how social media was being used to whip up the disorder and violence that several towns witnessed over some nights in August, we also saw many more people and communities come together to express how that was not reflective of their towns. We saw many more people work together to clean up the mess and damage in their neighbourhoods. We can also all take heart that, on 10 August, thousands of people took to the streets across the UK to protest against the racist thuggery and anti-immigrant rhetoric that they had witnessed—far more people than had taken part in the disorder itself.

Our relationships with our diverse communities are crucial to community cohesion, and I know that many people felt scared or uneasy in those early days of August. Violence, prejudice, racism, Islamophobia and antisemitism have no place in our society, and nobody should ever be subjected to them. I want to reassure everyone who was impacted that this Government will always work to ensure that every person living in Scotland is protected and that we are united in our opposition to anyone who would seek to use disorder as a means of division.

In the first week of August, I attended the Edinburgh central mosque, and, at my invitation, faith leaders came together as well. That provided an opportunity for us all to make clear that conflict and hatred have no place here. Faith leaders from across Scotland continue to promote mutual respect and share a common desire for everybody to be safe in our society. As First Minister, I assured them that that desire is shared by all of Scotland’s political leaders.

I also convened a meeting and briefing between political leaders and Police Scotland. I thank colleagues in this chamber for taking the time to attend that event. It enabled senior officers to brief us on the work that they are undertaking to keep people safe as they engage with communities to provide reassurance and to ensure that none feels marginalised, isolated or vulnerable. In recent weeks, the service has had considerable engagement with Muslim and other minority communities. Greater officer visibility around mosques and hotels housing asylum seekers has also been well received.

Let me be absolutely clear to anyone in Scotland who is considering mimicking the kind of vile behaviour that we have witnessed in parts of England and Northern Ireland this summer that their actions will not be tolerated, they will be dealt with robustly and criminal actions online will be taken just as seriously.

I want to reassure people in Scotland that we have plans and preparations in place to ensure that everybody is kept safe in this period and that we continue to work co-operatively with a wide range of organisations throughout the country to tackle racism and hatred and to promote inclusion.

Let me turn now to the role of social media and how its use—or should I say misuse—has proven how easy it is for false information to spread. Following the tragic events in Southport, social media was a key factor in the first incident of disorder that then took place. In Scotland, we had an occasion when untrue speculation was spread about the perpetrator of an incident in Stirling. I wish to commend Police Scotland for its swift action in countering that misinformation and, I believe, in helping to reduce the risk of any possible conflict in Scotland.

Although we all have an individual duty to question whether everything that we read online is actually true, it is very clear to me that the major organisations behind the platforms also have a duty—both moral and legal—to take action to ensure that individuals in our society are not subjected to hate and threatening behaviour and that communities are protected from violence.

I wrote to the main social media companies, asking them to promptly outline the decisive steps that they plan to take on the matter, and we have engaged constructively with the United Kingdom Government on this question. Social media companies have assured me that safety teams have been working to detect any associated violation of their terms of service and that they have taken action, including account suspension and content removal. However, recent events suggest that there is much more work to do to ensure that hateful content and misinformation do not proliferate.

I want to conclude by emphasising to anyone who feels fearful of being targeted for who they are or what they believe that we stand in solidarity with them. Scotland is a diverse, multicultural?society where everyone is welcome, and I want us to be united in our opposition to anyone who would seek to use disorder and violence to divide people.

However, we are not immune to the actions of a violent, misguided minority, and therefore we must remain vigilant. People in Scotland who are feeling afraid, marginalised or isolated as the result of this summer’s events should rightly look to their parliamentarians to stand with them—and we do.

As First Minister of Scotland, I will always be emphatic in saying that violence and conflict have no place in our communities. The Scottish Government is committed to building cohesive communities within which divisive narratives will not resonate. It is in our power to address hatred and prejudice by tackling its root causes, and the most powerful and effective way in which to do that is by bringing communities together to learn from one another. It is for all of us in the chamber, and across society, to commit to standing for tolerance and equality and against hate and violence. The importance of one Scotland where people live in safety and peace, and have the opportunity to flourish, cannot be understated.

I close by reflecting on the words of Sabir Zazai, the chief executive of the Scottish Refugee Council, who was among the community leaders whom I met in August. Sabir emphasised the importance of nourishing community togetherness, of shared values and of the need to

“build bridges and bonds between communities.”

Let us all affirm our commitment to doing just that. Bridges must be built, but they must also be maintained, and that is the approach that we should all take.

[Applause.]

The First Minister will now take questions on the issues that were raised in his statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move to the next item of business. I would be grateful if members who wish to put a question were to press their request-to-speak buttons.

I begin by saying how good it is to see Richard Lochhead back in Parliament today, after his serious illness. [Applause.] People across Moray and in the chamber are pleased to see him looking so well, and our thoughts are with Richard—and with Fiona, Angus and Fraser—as he continues his recovery.

Turning to the statement that we have just heard, I echo the First Minister’s comments about the tragedy in Southport. Every parent worries about their child getting hurt, and no one can imagine the pain that the families of three precious girls, who were brutally murdered in horrific circumstances at a summer dance class, are going through right now. It is unimaginable, and our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the young victims and with the others who were injured during that senseless attack.

At this point, I say unequivocally that everyone, regardless of faith, race and background, in Scotland and across the UK, deserves to feel safe. Violence has no place in our society. The rioting and attacks that we saw in UK cities over the summer were both tragic and deeply alarming. Although it is welcome that such events have not occurred in Scotland, we cannot be complacent and deceive ourselves that they could never happen here. We have to be prepared.

However, in the past three years, police officer numbers in Scotland have fallen by 1,000. David Threadgold, the chair of the Scottish Police Federation, has said that

“the service simply cannot recruit the number of officers it needs to replace those who are leaving.”

We all know the vital role that police officers play in managing disorder and keeping our communities safe. What action is the Government taking, therefore, to halt the reduction in the number of police officers across Scotland? At this point, I remind members that my wife is a serving police officer.

In June, before the riots occurred, the Government released almost 500 inmates from prisons early because of a lack of capacity in prisons. Can the First Minister provide an update on prison capacity and say whether his Government is considering more early releases?

Finally, the Home Secretary announced yesterday that the UK Government will review its counter-extremism strategy. What discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government about that work?

I thank Mr Ross for his contribution, and I associate myself very much with his remarks in relation to my colleague Richard Lochhead, whom I am delighted to see back in Parliament after a very serious illness. I commend the staff at Aberdeen royal infirmary, whom I had the great privilege to meet, just days after Richard’s operation, in order to thank them for the extraordinary work that they had undertaken. It puts me in awe of what clinicians have to face and to handle. I am profoundly grateful to them, and I am delighted that Richard is back in his place today.

Mr Ross makes a number of comments about the importance of community cohesion and safety, and the safety of children. I associate myself entirely with those comments; he is entirely correct about those things.

Police numbers are growing as a consequence of the very significant recruitment efforts by Police Scotland that are now under way, and we expect the numbers to rise in the period ahead. Police capacity has been adequate and appropriate to deal with the challenges that we face. Indeed, the chief constable has been able to take part in mutual aid to Northern Ireland, which she would only do if she was confident about police resourcing in Scotland, and she has given me the assurance that she is.

In relation to the early release of prisoners, Parliament has authorised the steps that we have taken so far. The prison population continues to rise, and to rise significantly. The Cabinet was updated on that issue by the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs this morning. We are having to look at the issues around capacity in our prison system and at whether we have to take any other steps to ensure that the prison population remains safe and sustainable for prisoners and staff. The justice secretary will update Parliament on those questions.

In relation to the work of the United Kingdom Government on terrorism measures, obviously we remain in regular discussion with the UK Government on those questions, and we expect to take forward those discussions in the period ahead, as the UK Government forms its steps.

Mr Ross will be aware that we have taken a slightly different approach to the handling of the communication of these issues in Scotland in the past, which has been built on building community confidence in anti-terror measures. I have a great deal of confidence in that, and I think that, most importantly, the communities of Scotland have confidence in those measures, as we saw demonstrated during the period of instability that we wrestled with over the summer.

I echo the comments about Richard Lochhead; it is great to see him back, and I warmly welcome the content of the First Minister’s statement.

Our hearts go out to all the families in Southport and in particular to those who were directly impacted by those horrendous acts of violence. Tragically, when those families, and that community, were hurting and needed love, time and support, a hateful band of far-right thugs attempted to hijack those tragic murders of three young girls with the aim of further dividing our communities and spreading fear across the country.

I praise the UK Government’s response, which was strong, swift and appropriate. I also thank the Scottish Government and the police here in Scotland for the tone of their response in order to minimise the risk of disorder.

I welcome the opportunity for us in the Parliament today to come together and speak with one voice. We will not allow the acts of a mindless few to speak for the vast majority of people in this country who believe in the principles of peace, tolerance and love.

Sadly, there are people who seek to divide our communities. Much of that is amplified by reckless politicians who are only interested in their own divisive agendas, and we have to call them out for what they are. However, greater responsibility must be borne by the social media companies that allow their platforms to be used as vehicles to amplify, to recruit, to organise and to fundraise.

There is also, of course, people’s individual responsibility to make sure that they are not deliberately or inadvertently sharing misinformation. We all have a responsibility to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to pull our country together. Ultimately, there will always be those who want to turn community against community because they thrive on the politics of us versus them.

Here in Scotland and across the UK, we cannot be complacent and must recognise our responsibility to build a society that is about all of us. Does the First Minister agree that we must never and will never allow the words or the actions of a mindless few far-right thugs to define who we are as a people or who we are as a nation?

I welcome Mr Sarwar’s remarks, particularly the point that he makes in relation to interaction with social media. There is a responsibility on us all with regard to what we say and what we do on social media, as well as with regard to whether we believe what we see on social media, but there is also a huge obligation on those companies in that regard. The United Kingdom Government has been making those obligations pretty clear to social media companies. Ofcom has also been doing that—its statements at the height of the difficulties were very clear about the obligation of those companies to operate within the code of responsibility. As I indicated in my statement, there is much more to be done to ensure that that is the case.

We cannot pause for a moment to in any way, shape or form relax our rejection of far-right ideology. We have to stand together and be persistent and assertive about setting out that that represents the wrong agenda for our country, that we believe in the importance of diverse, multicultural communities and that we believe in the importance of bringing people together. Therefore, I was delighted to welcome political leaders to Bute house to enable us to have a briefing and to make the point—as colleagues have done—that we are working to create a cohesive society. We want people to come together, and we reject the ideology of the far right in politics.

On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I, too, offer a warm welcome back to Richard Lochhead. We are very pleased to see him recovering well.

I thank the First Minister for his statement, which properly reflected the depth of compassion for those affected by the violence in Southport and the horrific murders, and the depth of anger at those who have opportunistically capitalised on that horrific event to pursue their toxic ideology.

However, although I welcome a lot of what was in the First Minister’s statement, I suggest that two things were missing from it. First, it is not only social media that is responsible for the promotion and proliferation of hatred and prejudice against immigrants, asylum seekers and Muslims. Those attitudes have also been deliberately cultivated by swathes of the UK mainstream media and by successive UK Governments. Politicians from a number of different parties are culpable for that.

Secondly, it is when social and community cohesion is already weakened that the far right finds its opportunity.

Does the First Minister agree that, if more austerity is coming our way, we have a responsibility to ensure that the burden falls on the wealthiest, not on our communities, on the investment that they need or on the public services that they need, if we want to have a chance of maintaining the cohesion of the communities that he describes?

I acknowledge the importance of Mr Harvie’s points, and I thank him for his comments. Many comments have been made in the mainstream media and by politicians that I would never want to be associated with, because they represent an ideology that I find repugnant. However, I accept that that is a reality, which is why it is important that we exercise political leadership in Scotland, that we reject that ideology and that we reject it across the Parliament. It is to the credit of all parties in the Parliament that we are prepared to stand together to reject that. I will do everything that I can as First Minister to foster a climate that enables that to be the case, because I want this Parliament to speak as one in saying that the far-right ideology of racism or hate has absolutely no place in our society whatsoever.

On Mr Harvie’s point about social and economic cohesion in our communities, as he will know, the Government invests heavily to make sure that we work to tackle poverty in our society. I would like to feel that I was operating in a situation in which I had a more sympathetic, prevailing climate to try to tackle poverty as a consequence of the change of UK Government. I am somewhat bewildered by the fact that we are not making more headway on that question, but it is early days.

It is important that we recognise the damage of austerity—I associate myself with Mr Harvie in that regard. Austerity is damaging our communities and the fabric of life. That is why it has to come to an end, and I want to ensure that that is the case in Scotland.

I, too, welcome Richard Lochhead back. It is great to see him so well.

I thank the First Minister for the tone of his statement, for being inclusive in his approach to the riots, during which he invited all political leaders to Bute house, and for the briefings that we got there.

When those murders happened, the four nations of these islands fell silent, but that silence was broken by the brutal thuggery that we saw on the streets of England. I was astonished—I am sure that members shared my astonishment—that some of the youngest perpetrators of the lawlessness were as young as 11 years old. Nobody is born racist but, as the First Minister said, many people in our society are becoming more susceptible to rhetoric and online misinformation. When it comes to young people of that age, it strikes me that, as a state, we have a role to play in countering that. What steps is the First Minister’s Government taking to work with education authorities to ensure that we counter, right at the heart of our school system, that level of misinformation and rhetoric?

I welcome Mr Cole-Hamilton’s comments. He will be familiar with the ethos of curriculum for excellence, which is the curriculum in our schools. One of its objectives—one of the four capacities—is to create responsible citizens. That aspiration runs right through our approach to our three-to-18 curriculum, so, from young people’s earliest interaction with our education system, the importance of becoming a responsible citizen is imbued in our educational model.

On the specific incidents over the summer, the chief inspector of education wrote to all local authorities to convey guidance and educational materials that the school system could use when pupils returned in August. That was to ensure that materials were available to schools to support them in—I agree with Mr Cole-Hamilton on this point—the important work that has to be done to ensure that young people are exposed to the most considered material that will support them to become responsible citizens and to turn their backs on any involvement in violence and prejudice such as that which we saw on the streets of England and Northern Ireland.

I welcome the First Minister’s statement. As in many other places, misinformation on the nature of a recent serious incident in Stirling spread rapidly online. Will the First Minister further outline what action needs to be taken to ensure that websites such as X, Meta and TikTok combat the spread of misinformation and address racist and hateful material on their platforms? Have social media platforms provided reassurance?

I have been in touch with social media companies, and I have had responses from some of them about the steps that they take. They provided some degree of assurance about material that is taken down, but I do not think that that goes nearly far enough. It is quite easy to view material online that I consider to be completely and utterly repugnant and unacceptable.

Ofcom has strict and clear guidelines in place, but my sense is that those are not being respected by social media companies. We will engage in dialogue with the UK Government to ensure that whatever strengthening is required is undertaken. Social media companies have a responsibility to exercise their duties, and they could exercise them this minute to protect communities from being exposed to unacceptable material.

I echo the sentiments of colleagues across the chamber. We all have a duty to stand up to bigotry and racism in all its forms, and it is important to recognise that the response to the riots showed the overwhelming tolerance and decency of people across the UK.

We have already heard that police officer numbers in Scotland are at their lowest level in 17 years. Today, it has been reported that an additional 1,000 officers will be eligible to retire in the coming year. Will the First Minister tell us what he considers to be the minimum number of officers required to keep our communities safe?

Obviously, the number of police officers is an operational matter for the chief constable, but there are discussions between the Government, the chief constable and the Scottish Police Authority about such matters. As I said to Mr Ross in my earlier answer, there has been a fall in police numbers, which has been driven, in part, by the issue that Mr Findlay has raised—a larger number of retirals than was expected—but recruitment is under way to replace those individuals, and we expect police numbers to rise.

I reiterate the point that we have had police numbers at the level that we have had in Scotland, which I accept are lower than they have been, but we have also been able to offer mutual aid to other forces when that has been requested, and communities in Scotland have remained safe.

It is vital that we do all that we can to reach out to our faith and migrant communities and offer solidarity, support and reassurance that they enrich the social and cultural fabric of our nation. With that in mind, will the First Minister provide further detail on the work that is being supported to promote community cohesion across the country?

A great deal of work is under way in that respect through dialogue with stakeholder organisations who are well connected within communities. The justice secretary and I visited the Edinburgh central mosque during the incident and it was reassuring to hear the comments that were being made by members of the Muslim community about their relationship with the police and the dialogue that takes place.

I had my own experience of that when I visited a synagogue in East Renfrewshire and I met the Jewish community and heard similarly their appreciation of the assurance of their safety that was undertaken, although they highlighted to me the fact that, at times, they feel very unsafe and fearful.

We have to actively support activity in that respect and I assure Rona Mackay that that work is under way in Scotland today.

Does the First Minister agree that the rise of the far right is a problem across the UK, with many in society feeling alienated and disenfranchised? What more can be done to work with community organisations, trade unions and others to support groups that are affected and to combat that ideology?

There are two aspects to that. I very much agree with the aspirations that Katy Clark sets out in her question, and I have two points to make in response.

We have to give relentless political leadership on the value and inclusivity of our communities and not allow anything at all to get in the way of our unity on that point. It is precious to me and that is why I valued the engagement with political leaders during the summer.

The second point is about social and economic policy choices, and, frankly, austerity. Enormous damage has been done to our society in the past 14-year period of austerity and I want it to come to an end. We need to reinvest in our communities and we need to tackle the challenge of poverty. I will say more about that in the programme for government tomorrow, because I believe that poverty is the feeding ground of some of that misplaced ideology.

In continuously working to protect, promote and enhance community cohesion and inclusion, would the First Minister wish to further emphasise our shared admiration for the important contribution that local organisations and individuals across Scotland make to proactively, positively, tenaciously and regularly bring people together as fellow citizens and human beings, through various initiatives, communications and events, and work to support new Scots in our communities? I am talking about remarkable organisations here in the capital, such as the Multi-Cultural Family Base, the Edinburgh Interfaith Association, Building Bridges and The Welcoming.

I very much agree with Ben Macpherson. A whole host of community organisations do remarkable work in bringing people together. They exist across all communities. During the summer, I had a conversation with Mr Carlaw about organisations that come together in his constituency to support communities and provide welcome assistance and assurance for individuals. I encourage them to continue to do that and I express my appreciation for all that they do.

On the streets of Southport, there were thugs, racists and all manner of extremists, but there were also people from what we might call “deprived areas” generally raging against the political establishment. Does the 60 per cent turnout at the recent election not tell us that politics is failing, when some choose bricks, not the ballot box, and that the cohesion that Patrick Harvie referred to will be severely tested under increasing austerity?

I have made clear my view that austerity is damaging our communities and I want to see that resolved. I cannot summon up any appreciation or understanding of why somebody wants to engage in violence—I just cannot understand it at all—so I think that it has no justification. Political participation is an essential way to resolve any differences and debates in our society, and we should all engage in that.

It is important to separate out those different things. We should make our political choices, exercise our political leadership and encourage people to participate in the political process, and we should be absolutely and completely resolute in rejecting any sense that there is any excuse or legitimacy for violence in our society. I know that Christine Grahame will not be of the view that there is such legitimacy. We have to set that out very clearly to ensure that the public are protected and that we invest in and support our communities.

Scotland was not exempt from the turmoil that occurred last month. Although no riots broke out in Scotland, ethnic minority constituents in my region contacted me to say that they felt unsafe—so unsafe that they decided to stay at home or close their businesses until tensions calmed. What action is the First Minister taking to build community cohesion, not just between civil servants and community leaders but between members of the community? Will there be an increase in community outreach initiatives and community hubs?

It is important that we encourage and enable the cohesion of communities. Some of that comes about by political leadership, some comes about by community work and some by the active investment in social and economic priorities in the Government’s programme and the programme of local authorities. Of course, our local authorities are heavily involved in all that work on community cohesion at local level.

It is important that we remain focused on that. It is unacceptable that anybody should feel unsafe in our society. It is unacceptable that somebody has to close their business because they are fearful of being attacked—that is completely repugnant to me. Police Scotland is prepared to be visible and active to protect people, and it has done so. A combination of those measures—investment in our communities, effective policing and strong, clear political leadership—will help us through these difficulties.

Stand Up to Racism Scotland has planned a family-friendly and safely stewarded mass event with support from trade unions and civil society organisations this coming Saturday. What advice would the First Minister provide to people who wish to attend the rally to express solidarity with communities that have been affected by the recent disorder, so that they can stay safe?

I encourage people who intend to attend any such event to follow the guidance that is available, to follow any advice from the police and, fundamentally, to stay safe and to engage in democratic peaceful protest. There is a place for democratic peaceful protest in our society—Parliament will be familiar with the fact that I have been on a few such protests over my time. There is a place for democratic engagement, but it has to be done in a peaceful fashion, and I am sure that that will be followed this weekend.

That concludes the ministerial statement on community cohesion. I will allow a moment or two for the front-bench members to organise before we move on to the next item of business.