Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 30, 2023

Official Report 693KB pdf

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Female Participation in Sport and Physical Activity

Under our second agenda item, we will continue our inquiry into female participation in sport and physical activity. Today, we will take evidence from witnesses representing sports and public health organisations about broader issues that affect female participation in sport and physical activity. I welcome Kim Atkinson, who is the chief executive officer of the Scottish Sports Association; David Ferguson, who is the chief executive of the Observatory for Sport in Scotland; Flora Jackson, who is the health improvement manager at Public Health Scotland; Maureen McGonigle, who is the chief executive officer of Scottish Women in Sport, who joins us online; and Ailsa Wyllie, who is the lead manager at sportscotland.

We will move straight to questions. Lack of funding for women’s and girls’ sport, particularly compared with funding for men’s and boys’ elite sport, was identified as a challenge by many of the respondents to the committee’s call for evidence. That lack of funding relates to pay for athletes, sponsorship and prize money. What are the main challenges that affect funding and opportunities for women and girls in sport and physical activity, and how could they be overcome?

Good morning. It is really nice to see you all.

I put on the record the thanks of the Scottish Sports Association’s members for the committee’s visit. I know that a number of committee members took part in the visit, which was really well received and involved an open and positive conversation. I give a huge thanks to the committee and the clerking team for making that visit happen.

My starting point is to think about why we consider sport to be an investment, not a cost. That was one of the key phrases that came up when I previously gave evidence to the committee. At the moment, sport is seen as a cost. If there is one thing that I want the witnesses to convince you and all your colleagues of, it is that sport needs to be seen more as an investment. Cultural change is required.

First of all, sport is fun. It benefits our physical health, our mental health, our social health, our educational attainment and our ability to form friendships and develop skills—let alone the fact that it leads to a 30 per cent reduction in all causes of mortality and enhances wellbeing by 30 per cent. If I had a magic wand and only one tool was needed, we would all bite your hand off for it. However, it exists—it is called sport and physical activity.

That should be the starting point in every respect, but it is even more important given that we are talking about an area in which women’s health is poorer and that there are poorer levels of participation among women and young girls. Flora Jackson will be the expert on that issue.

I am sure that colleagues will touch on other aspects, but we can think about funding at national level and local level. At national level, most funding is annual. That is true across the voluntary sector, including for our members, which are the governing bodies of various sports in Scotland. The funding is often part of a longer-term agreement, but it is received annually, because the investment in sportscotland—the national agency—is annual. Sportscotland has its hands tied in that regard; it can say only that organisations will get one year’s funding. In all the committee’s evidence sessions, there have been tremendously positive examples of programmes, initiatives and systems that are making a phenomenal difference for women and girls, but a lot of that project funding is annual. Organisations therefore have to try to recruit, retain, motivate and get engaged staff who might be on one-year contracts. Even if they are on longer-term contracts, the funding is annual so, in reality, there is only limited certainty.

We are also talking about supporting volunteers. Volunteers are not free, and the 200,000 people who volunteer in sport in Scotland are supported by a small staff. There is an enormous need for long-term funding and core funding to allow us to recruit and retain the incredibly strong staff that we have across sport and physical activity in Scotland, and to ensure that there is consistency in the programmes, in delivery and in the support for volunteers. That is true across the whole voluntary sector—I am sure that the committee will have heard that from others—but it is especially true for our members. The caveat for them is that sportscotland also has to get that funding in order that providing such funding will appeal to it, too.

That is one of the biggest challenges for local authorities—I am sure that the committee will have heard that from other witnesses. Ninety per cent of investment in sport in Scotland goes through local authorities, but I question whether that 90 per cent of investment in sport actually goes into sport. Local authorities are facing incredibly difficult times—none of us makes any bones about that.

The same is true of the trust model. If the committee has heard from trusts, you will know that they have been saying that they have difficult decisions to make. They are getting less and less money from their local authority partners, and they are saying that the only way for them to make ends meet is to increase prices. Who does that cost fall on? It falls on participants. Who are the people who participate least? It is those who are from the most deprived backgrounds. There is no accident in all that. We need to have a different conversation about local funding and how we change the dynamic.

Does anyone else want to comment?

Yes. I thank everybody for taking the time to look at the issue, which the observatory has been looking at for a number of years. There is no doubt but that we face very serious challenges with poverty and inequality and the difficulties that those make for people to access sport activity, which was not the case 30 or 40 years ago in Scotland.

On the question around funding, I will ask my colleagues from Public Health Scotland and sportscotland to come in in a minute, because they are involved in setting funding. I echo Kim Atkinson on what the research tells us, which is that, over the past 20 years, there has been a continual reduction in the funding of sport and physical activity. As Kim has stated, local authority budgets have been tightened. The provision of sport and physical activity is non-statutory—you are looking at “satisfactory provision” and words such as that. There is no compelling request of local authorities to look after sport and physical activity, so when their budgets are ring fenced and pulled tight, it is the budgets of sport and physical activity and culture that get tightened. For the past 20 years, the funding has reduced year on year, as I have said.

If we consider girls and women, in particular, we are already aware that, in Scotland, poverty and inequalities are the biggest barriers to their sport activity. If you are a girl or woman living in an area of poverty, that multiplies the barriers to taking part in sport. If you have a disability, the barriers to taking part are greater again. Those are the people who are struggling.

We have councils that have massive lists of facilities that they can no longer run because of the pressure of the past 10 to 20 years from reducing budgets. Most of the facilities that are on their lists for closure over the next two to three years are in deprived areas, because, although footfall can be large, the facilities in those areas cannot charge £50 a month for memberships, because they will not sell. People are struggling to afford to take part in swimming pool activities. Areas of deprivation are suffering most, because it is the facilities in those areas that will close. For people in those areas, it is harder to get active.

I am sure that we will come on to talk about girls and women later in the session. When we talk about funding, it is the funding that has been taken out of local communities that has made it harder and harder for people across society to be able to take part in sport. I will hand over to Flora Jackson and her colleagues, who will tell you more about funding.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to share with you some evidence from the health perspective. I echo some of what our colleagues have already shared with the committee.

I am mindful of the notion that we have in legislation—the title of the act has escaped me—“adequate” provision of leisure, which is extremely dated. That adequate provision is now in decline, and the use of the word “adequate” is so open to interpretation that not one of us is particularly clear about what exactly it means. Perhaps we need to think more clearly in the future about what we actually mean by “adequate provision”. What would adequate provision look like in Scotland, particularly when we want to achieve an increase in physical activity across the population and to reap the benefits from shifting people from inactive to active? I would certainly be happy to take part in some of those discussions if they were to happen.

If you look at the evidence on what we do with our funding, you will see that the World Health Organization global action plan for physical activity and the International Society for Physical Activity and Health make a very clear case that where we have public funds, we should first and foremost prioritise those for people who are inactive. They also make the case that we need to ensure that we have opportunities that engage people in such a way that allows those who are active to maintain activity. It is very much a twofold ask; the inactive—

I am sorry to interrupt, but you seem to be going down a different path. I am asking specifically about women and girls as opposed to the general population. How can we make sure that funding is there for women and girls’ participation in sport?

Indeed. My point is that if we take that universal approach, we need to ensure that we identify that provision and target it at people who are particularly inactive, which is predominantly girls and women. From the age of 7, males are more active, which continues throughout the life course. I am sure that you all know that, which is why you are here today. I encourage targeting of our resources at those who require them most, which in this context is girls and women.

We move on, and I will bring in Ailsa Wyllie. The committee took evidence from various broadcasters and print media, and we heard about the lack of coverage of women’s sports. To what extent does media coverage impact on funding for women’s sport and on opportunities—opportunities that women’s sport perhaps does not get to access to that elite men’s sport does? Do you want to pick that up, Ailsa?

Good morning, everyone. Sportscotland is the national agency for sport, and I will reference the funding element from our perspective. Sportscotland invests in and supports the infrastructure of sports. Our work is very much around supporting the workforce, which drives up participation from the grass roots all the way through to performance sport.

I will make a couple of points on that. We invest in the sportscotland institute of sport to support our athletes who are performing in the Olympic games and Commonwealth games, not in professional sport, which is where we see a lot of differences in funding and prize money and so on. It is very much about the athletes who are competing in the Olympics and Commonwealth games at the high end.

More females than males—females were 52 per cent of the total—represented Scotland at the most recent Commonwealth games, in Birmingham. We do not have a role in professional sport in relation to the prize money for females who participate at the elite level. Our work is about investing in the sporting pathway. In that regard, we measure the outputs rather than investment against areas, and we absolutely recognise that there is inequality in participation. We also recognise the on-going funding pressures on local authorities and local budgets.

With regard to the media, it is obvious, especially in print media, that there is far less coverage of female sport, although that is also completely true across other outlets. Girls and young women growing up have to be able to see positive role models and influencers—that is key. Sportscotland is really passionate about young people having role models, and we want girls and young women growing up to see people in their local communities, local clubs and schools as role models through the various programmes that we offer.

We also need positive role models at the elite athlete stage. I hope that through social media you can see that that is beginning to happen. We have some very good athletes out there speaking up for girls and young women and encouraging them to take part in sport.

Does Maureen McGonigle want to come in at this point? I am specifically looking for views on how media coverage of women’s sport can be improved and therefore drive some of the changes that we are talking about, including around easily accessible positive role models, increases in prize money and parity between men’s sport and women’s sport.

09:15  

Thank you for having me; it is nice to be here.

On equal prize money, there is an opportunity there. We have to do a bit of creative thinking and market women in sport much smarter to get the prize money in, because it is really all down to sponsorship, which covers that kind of area.

On the media, I agree that the print press does not cover women’s sport unless there is a big event. However, I would also ask how important that coverage is, because we know that women and girls tend to use social media as their outlet—that is where they find out things. They are used to not seeing things in newspapers so they are not looking in them and, unless newspapers buck up their ideas, there will be more losses there. When we look at engaging with young women, we have a look at social media.

It is important, too, to engage with parents because parents do not see the value of young women participating in sport. They see the value of young men participating in sport, so a much stronger support system exists around young boys going into sport than around young girls doing so. For girls, that support system can break down.

Looking at the committee’s full agenda, I can see that all those points are interlinked, so I will probably come back with the same answers later.

I move to our next theme, with questions from Carol Mochan.

I am particularly interested in discussing women’s and girls’ activity at community level, which witnesses have talked a wee bit about. It is so important that people can exercise and take part in activity in their communities. Do models exist out there that work well, in particular for women and girls? Are there examples either from this country or further afield?

That is a great question. Before I come to it, I want to go back briefly to the convener’s point.

Flora Jackson made an incredibly important point, which is that if the focus of statutory provision is on “adequate provision”. We have already heard in the committee’s evidence and the submissions of others that women are looking for higher standards in facilities, including changing facilities, and that if “adequate” is the benchmark, that standard should be slightly higher for women. That might be no accident and is something of which we need to be aware. Carol Mochan will not be surprised to hear that I will come back to facilities in a moment.

In relation to the media, my question is to ask what is their role. A lot of conversation took place around the commercial outputs—understandably, because the media are businesses—but surely a moral responsibility exists for the media as educators. The chief medical officer’s guidelines were reviewed recently—I am sure that Flora Jackson can provide an update, if need be—and only 4 per cent of the population knew the previous CMO’s guidelines on how active one has to be to be healthy. My assumption is that the 4 per cent applies to women, as well.

Mothers, for example, are not as active as we need them to be. The key indicator of how physically active a young girl will be is physical activity inspiration—that is, participation by their mother and interest from their father. I go back to the point about the media: it is about coverage, sponsorship and all the things that the convener mentioned, but the media also need to say that we need to inspire men and women to know how they can be parents who will inspire a young girl to be active. I do not want that point to be lost. The role of the media in that is really important.

The challenges relating to community sport will partly be specific to women and girls and partly be systematic and systemic challenges that currently exist in sport. Access to community facilities is one of the largest challenges that sport, and the voluntary sector as a whole, face. The 13,000 existing sports clubs represent one third of the voluntary sector, and are part of two thirds when we add uniformed organisations, youth organisations and organisations to do with culture, the arts and so on. They are saying that the biggest issues that they face are recruitment of volunteers and access to community facilities, both of which are particularly relevant for women. That is a massive challenge, within which use of the school estate is a particular challenge.

Women are sometimes challenged in relation to their confidence in going into facilities that they do not know, and not all women are as confident in sport and physical activity as we would like them to be.

As the committee has heard, there are safety challenges related to accessing facilities, including in relation to late-night travel and whether women are able to take part in active travel as they would like. There is also a specific barrier related to time. That is exacerbated for women, for whom time is more of an issue than it is for men. That applies especially to women from deprived communities and single mums, who are the least active.

What is the solution? It might be to have a local facility—a facility that women know, that is in their local area, and which is welcoming. A school might seem like a specific solution; we talk a lot about access to the school estate, which is even more relevant in this than it is in other contexts. The last piece of research that was done on that was by sportscotland in 2014. It showed that although the school estate is open, it is not well used. I know that David Torrance said in a previous committee meeting that that is the nub of the issue. It is an issue for sport in general, but the problem is exacerbated for women.

There is a similar situation with physical education. The importance of role modelling has come up an awful lot, but we are seeing a decline in the number of PE teachers, both peripatetic and permanent. In primary schools in particular, there are fewer PE teachers than there have been, so class teachers are having to do ever more. Children’s teachers are, as well as their parents, among their first role models. Do we have enough PE teachers, and enough female PE teachers, who are providing a positive educational experience for young people?

We hope that young people who experience that would leave school thinking, “Doing sport and physical activity is a choice I want to make throughout my life, and I have the competence and can choose the sports and physical activity I’d like to take part in.” If we can nail those issues slightly differently, we will be in a slightly different place, where clubs can take up the mantle and coaches and volunteers can work things through.

However, the two limiting factors for many clubs that have waiting lists—female sports clubs are a huge part of that—are access to facilities, and coaches and volunteers to support that.

I want to pick up on that. The latest Scottish household survey figures, and the most recent research that the OSS did in any depth on the figures, which was in 2019, showed that up to the age of around eight to 10, girls are actually more active than boys in sport and physical activity, although activity levels are very similar and very close. However, from the age of 10, 11 and 12 onwards—we hear different ages for when the decline starts, but there is a transition—the level of activity starts to go down and the decline is steeper for girls than it is for boys, with more girls dropping out of sport.

In Scotland, we have one of the steepest declines in sporting activity among children in Europe. When we discuss what we can do about that in communities, we talk a lot about the general statistics, because that is where the solution will come from. There is not one simple solution: it is not about going in there and saying, “Let’s create this intervention.”

The committee has seen some great interventions—for example, what is being done in Dunfermline—and there are a lot of examples all over the country, but they might not be there when you next go to look at them. Many are short term because funding is not available for longer. You might see another example, and think, “Great!”, but although it might look brilliant and be bringing in girls and women, which is really good, it will not be funded for the long term.

Many interventions rely on various sources of funding and different pots, because we do not have a national strategic approach to ensuring that there is investment in community sport activity as a key route to health and wellbeing that also has much wider benefits. We looked at a number of models throughout Europe. One thing that the Dutch did to try to address the drop-out rate relates to what Flora Jackson said earlier about focusing on inequalities. It is necessary to focus on where the money goes and what you want to get back from it.

The Dutch decided that they were no longer going to fund sports across communities just randomly, by giving out money and saying, “There you go—as a sport, you’re doing a good job.” They decided that they would look for real come-back in terms of benefits for health and wellbeing from work that being done in deprived areas. They deliberately targeted girls and women in communities where it was known that the figures were not good enough and drop-out rates were too high, and they asked how to address that.

There are something like 360 municipalities across the Netherlands. The Netherlands Government went into each one and said, “Okay—we’re going to bring health and wellbeing, education, sport and business together to look at how we fund sport.” The Government has done that only in the past 10 years, so it is a fairly new programme—it is called the national sports agreement. A hockey, football, golf or whatever club will be told that it can carry on but will no longer receive Government funding if it remains, for example, a private club or a club that is just for boys. It can carry on but is told not to come to the Government looking for money for changing rooms, kit or whatever.

If a club in the Netherlands is to receive Government funding in the future, it must tick boxes with regard to ensuring that a good proportion of its activities are for girls and women. The club will know that people might come from deprived backgrounds, so it should ensure that those people are welcome and that activity is affordable, if not free. There will then be help given through funding to ensure that the facility is looked after and that the club does not have to deal with maintenance. Maintenance and travel are two of the biggest problems for sports clubs because of the huge costs involved. The Dutch Government is saying at national level that it will, in its work with municipalities, ensure that those aspects are looked after, but the clubs must make sure that they tick the boxes on health and wellbeing and on poverty and inequalities so that the Government can get to people who are not active.

I have spoken to politicians and civil servants in the Netherlands about that and asked how it went. The first year or two was really difficult, because lots of football and other sports clubs said, “You’re putting us out of business. We’ve flown the flag—we have great football teams, hockey teams and what have you, but suddenly you’re taking the money away from us.” The key point that the politicians and civil servants made was that there was a very strong Minister of Health, Welfare and Sport who stood by what she had brought in and said that it was really important. The people to whom I spoke said that for a couple of years they caught a lot of flak in the media, but they stuck by what they were doing and are now seeing a difference. Clubs are now asking how to tick the boxes. They are told that being disability friendly is not about putting a ramp at the front of their facility but is about having people with disabilities on their committees and boards, and streaming their programmes. They have seen a real change over recent years.

When it comes to case studies, there are lots of great examples in Scotland, but things are just not joined up in terms of being supported nationally and being properly funded nationally and locally.

Thanks for that feedback. How do you see the sports governing bodies feeding in to community sports? Is that something that we do well or that we need to do better?

With regard to club and community sport, we invest our money through governing bodies to support them to deliver participation activities. That works hand in hand with our active schools network, which is one of the flagship programmes of sportscotland. It is very much about developing people through sport and delivery of physical activity, and through sport within communities’ ties to local schools. Our network of more than 400 managers and co-ordinators is associated with every school in Scotland. They work on the school-to-community and school-to-club pathways as well.

Across the governing bodies, we ensure that they are embedding equality, diversity and inclusion in their sports. Models are emerging of how they are doing that specifically with regard to girls and young women. Walking netball is an example; it is a Netball Scotland initiative to encourage girls’ and women’s participation. “Bounce back to netball” and walking netball are both initiatives to draw girls and women back in. We are listening to and learning from the communities that have not been taking part.

Scottish Athletics has the “Community strides” programme, which is a jogscotland initiative. It works very closely with community-based organisations on how to get more girls and women active. That programme is specifically aimed at women from ethnic minority backgrounds. Those are examples from governing bodies.

I also draw on our community sport hub models. We have more than 200 community sport hubs in Scotland that work with clubs in their areas to do exactly what David Ferguson was describing—bringing different sports together to work with each other.

A lot of this goes back to knowledge from research; we know that girls and young women want to be listened to, especially as they are growing up. They want to be consulted and asked what activities they are interested in. The active schools network and one of our national programmes called “Fit for girls” are very much about tackling barriers in order to combat the teenage drop-off in physical activity participation. We know from the figures that there is a steep decline at that age. We are trying to give girls at a younger age, within their own settings in schools and communities, the skills and confidence to participate in sport, so that they have healthier attitudes to participation when they become teenagers. Girls in that group are dropping out of sport because they do not feel confident, so if we can change that attitude at a younger age, that should help girls and women to maintain a healthier approach to physical activity, then they can continue their journey of participation throughout their life stages.

We know that throughout the various life stages of girls and women, including women who are getting older, there are barriers to participation. The key is to consult and to build self-esteem and self-confidence in women and girls. We can do that if we all work together. That is why we need to work with our partner Education Scotland through the school model of PE sport. Physical activity and sport are about working with community groups, listening and being open to consultation.

Convener, can I just—

Two other members want to ask supplementaries on this theme. Emma Harper will be followed by Sue Webber.

09:30  

Good morning, everybody.

I want to pick up on Kim Atkinson’s point about availability of facilities. Gillian Martin, our previous convener, used to say that in Iceland they would basically hand the keys of the school over to the kids, because they trusted them just to get on with things and access the facilities. We do not do that sort of thing, but is that something that we should progress? Do you have data on use of the school estate after, say, 4 o’clock in the afternoon? Should we be looking at what other countries do and pursuing the models that they have in place? David Ferguson mentioned what is being done in Denmark, I think, and I have been looking at what the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media has been doing in America to encourage young women into sport and athletics. We could look at best practice in other countries; should we pursue that?

I agree 100 per cent that you should. I could not be more supportive of that; it is exactly what should be done. At the end of the day, the irony, as I see it—I apologise if I am oversimplifying things—is that the school estate is a community facility that is run by the local authority with community money on behalf of the community, but the community itself cannot get into it. If that is not a complete irony, I am not sure what is.

There are models that work. I make it clear that this is not just about the indoor school estate; it is also about the outdoor estate. There is a lot of research that shows that when outdoor playing fields and pitches are open people do not break into them. They respect them a little more and there is less vandalism and fewer break-ins, and so on.

As I have said, though, this is about the whole voluntary sector, of which women are a huge part. When we look at the girl guides, the brownies and other uniformed organisations, we see that a huge part of women’s physical activity happens within that network.

Access is one of the biggest barriers. We have all talked about the huge financial pressures on local authorities. Access to the school estate is difficult; there are planning issues to take into account, but now, more often than not, it is the cost that is the challenge. I have been talking about this over the 13 years in which I have been in this post, and I have to say that I am still not 100 per cent clear what the issue is. Therefore, if there was an ask that we would make of the committee, it would be that the committee, the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee and the Education, Children and Young People Committee hold a cross-committee inquiry to find out what the problem is, because I think that none of us knows.

This is a conversation that we have routinely across sport. Why can nobody get into the school estate? Why is it so expensive? What would a different model look like? It is particularly important that women and girls in that environment know why. Kate Joester from Living Streets Scotland highlighted some phenomenal examples of planning for women and said why it is important; I think that that plays into the school estate issue. It is about availability and access, but it is also about cost. It is incredibly challenging.

The last research on the matter was done, I understand, in 2014. It showed that a lot of space that is open it is very rarely used, compared with what could or should be used. We want to understand that a bit better.

Can I—

I am going to move on to Sue Webber.

My questions are for Ailsa Wyllie and Maureen McGonigle. Ailsa—you talked about the various stages in a woman’s life and said that this is not just a matter of teenage drop-off. Maureen has a blog, or website, about—

I am sorry, but I think that you have moved on to the next theme. We are still on theme 2.

Yes, I know. Okay.

We are talking about funded organisations. I know that there are an awful lot of inspiring women in our communities who are setting up businesses to tackle the gap in relation to women not taking part in sport. What are you are doing in that respect? People are not looking for funding; they are looking for access and support. What are you doing to help women who are helping other women in the community to get back into activity?

I can pick that up. Various things are going on. With regard to the supporting workforce in the sector in which we invest, we are very much working with our local authority partners and are going hand in hand with community organisations to understand what they bring. We can, from a national point of view, highlight and raise awareness of the issues. We are doing everything that we can do through our social media channels to raise the profile of the matter and to help people’s understanding, through role models.

When I talk about role models, I am talking not just about elite athletes but about the role models in our communities. For example, we do a lot of work on young leaders in sport. When we advertise any of the roles that relate to leadership, bigger numbers of girls and young women from schools and community organisations come forward than numbers of their male counterparts. That work is a big part of what we do. We have themes throughout the year, such as the active girls scheme at sportscotland, and we have worked with the Scottish Government on its Scottish women and girls in sport week. That is about using the positive role models that we have locally. It is not about investment or funding, but about raising awareness of what is being offered and trying to work together to help local authorities to make the connections.

Previous evidence from Kirsty Garrett of Glasgow Life suggested that sports clubs and organisations have good codes of conduct and good governance. I am sure that we agree with that. In fact, all organisations should have that. Do you provide guidance information specifically on what that should look like? I know that every organisation is different, but are there fact sheets that say where people can get help if something happens?

There are possibly not such sheets. The Observatory for Sport in Scotland’s focus is on research and data and what they tell us. We do not provide a fact sheet or guide sheet on where people should go for help. I know that a lot of that information is available: sportscotland provides it, as does the SSA. To follow up on what Ailsa Wylie said—

I will pause you there. My question is specific: are there organisations that have that information?

Yes.

We will move to the next theme, which is women’s health.

I will talk about a report that was published by Aberdeen Grammar Rugby club, relating to some of the specific physiological differences in female anatomy. It says that no matter how much women train, they are much more susceptible to brain injury and have less neck muscle mass. If you watch some of the physical sports that we take part in, whether that is football, rugby or hockey, women are expected to perform in the same way as men. However, there is a much greater risk or danger of significant injury when women take the full impact of some activities, such as a tackle or a free hit. What is being done in organisations in order to mitigate the effects of that and to support women who present differently for some of those injuries, as some men do, in order to make sure that we are not causing any unnecessary or unintended harm?

I will happily come in. That is probably outwith the remit and scope of the current work of Public Health Scotland. Perhaps colleagues within the institute of sport would be better placed to advise on that, particularly with the sports science expertise that they have. Concussion guidance has been recently developed with some of the health bodies.

Okay. You can pass it over to someone else.

To echo that, it is not my area of expertise, but I know that my colleagues in the medics team in the sportscotland institute of sport are working with global organisations and federations across various sports. Flora Jackson mentioned rugby. World Rugby, the global federation for the sport, is looking at the concussion guidelines and the differences between females and males in that respect.

I do not know whether you know, but I understand that although there is an intention to change the concussion guidelines, they will still be the same irrespective of a person’s sex. I am looking to establish whether we need guidance that is specific for the female sex, because we present differently and we have many other things that are going on, such as hormonal changes. Are you aware of anything specific around that?

I know that the sportscotland institute of sport has set up a female athlete performance group, and it is researching and looking into various agendas within that.

We know that a lot of research is done around injuries to the knee, for example, which shows that anterior cruciate ligament injuries are more predominant in females. Our colleagues from the medical world are looking into that.

Would Maureen McGonigle like to come in on that?

Thank you. I appreciate the question, because it is something that we have been thinking about for a long while. For so long, and so often, research has been done on men and is then cut down to size to fit women. However, we know that women’s bodies are much more complex and require specific research.

A lot of work has recently been done by a gentleman who is involved in concussion research. It is interesting to see that it is not just about what happens with the impact; the impact can be different depending on whether the woman is menstruating at the time.

Training is also an issue. We have to start an education programme in Scotland to let coaches know how to deal with women—for example, when someone is menstruating or going into menopause. There are still some women out there in running or training who need to learn how to deal with their bodies. There is a big piece of work to be done there.

The University of the West of Scotland is doing a lot of work in that area, with its staff being involved in a lot of research, some of which is quite innovative. In my view, the situation is that everything seems to be there, but nobody is pulling it together. There is advice and research out there, but it is being done in isolation. We need to look at how we can pull those things together so that everyone can benefit from the knowledge that is gained.

I certainly recognise the point about ACL injuries, as I am sitting here in pain from decades of hockey.

Again, what are sports governing bodies and organisations doing to help women to take part in sport later in life specifically? We hear that they are pushed out, whether that is through having a family or as a result of work-life pressures—for example, the man still gets to go off to his five-a-side or golf. I am thinking of women being pushed out later in life, in particular during the menopause, when osteoporosis may start to become a challenge.

On the research bases, it would be helpful if the committee were to make a recommendation on that. As you heard from Maureen McGonigle, there is a lot of research out there but it is all over the place. The Observatory for Sport in Scotland has been trying to change that and to pull everything together.

I would say that we are seeing more such research. I have been coaching girls’ hockey for around 12 years, for girls who are aged from 11 to 18, and a lot of my understanding of girls and the challenges that they go through has come from The Well HQ. The committee heard last week from Baz Moffat, who talked a lot about that, and from LEAP Sports Scotland about the work that it does.

I would say that there is now more information out there for young coaches, and for other coaches, than there ever has been, at least as far as I have been aware. For example, there are child safeguarding courses, and sportscotland courses that people can go on. However, although there is more research than there has previously been, it is still an issue. We do not have a lot of research in Scotland, and the OSS is pushing for more of it. We would love it if the committee could support us in that, because we need more of that research.

We move to Evelyn Tweed for questions on our next theme, which is leadership, governance and representation.

Ailsa Wyllie mentioned that we need strong role models. How do we ensure that we get strong role models coming forward, whether those are athletes, coaches or anyone else who is involved with female sport?

I do not think that we have got it cracked yet, which is why we are having these discussions today.

From some of the programmes in which sportscotland has been involved over the years, we know that there is definitely a bigger focus and emphasis on young people and young leaders. We really see the benefit and the impact of the contribution that young people make to sport when we get them involved in opportunities for leadership roles that reflect their areas of interest, and in which they are then role models for others. The saying, “You can’t be what you can’t see” is so relevant when we are looking at participation in sport among women and girls.

A few of the national programmes that I have spoken about are for school-age children and young people. Overwhelmingly, we get a higher percentage of girls stepping forward to be part of those programmes and take up those roles, which is really positive. We hope that that will have a knock-on effect in years to come, so that those girls have the confidence and the self-esteem to be our future leaders and coaches in the sporting system.

It is critical that they then have the confidence to take those roles, because a lot of the research tells us that women think that they need to meet 100 per cent of the criteria in job adverts, whereas men will go for jobs when they meet 60 per cent of the criteria. Therefore, there is definitely a need to give girls that confidence and raise their self-esteem as they grow up and come through life, so that, when they are at an age where they can take on roles, they will step forward to take them on.

09:45  

We also have a female leadership programme, through which we are identifying future leaders in the sporting sector, and we help to invest in them and support places so that they can go through the leadership academy. Again, that is about giving girls and women who are coming through the sporting system more confidence so that, in the future, they aspire to these roles as our future leaders of governing bodies, in chief officer positions.

That is a great question. I saw the great video that you guys watched before one of your other evidence sessions and it raised the interesting question of what a role model is. I am kind of assuming that the interviewees were role models to the student who made the video, which is amazing. Role models are everywhere. During Scottish women and girls in sports week, I said that I feel incredibly lucky to be in this position, because I see phenomenal role models everywhere I go. The challenge is that people do not get the profile that means that other people actually see them. In the committee evidence sessions, you have seen some tremendous female role models—and male role models who are incredibly supportive of women’s sports—so they do exist. That is the first part of the issue.

The second part is working out where they exist and what that could look like. Leadership plays a hugely important role in supporting that, as Ailsa Wyllie was saying. Our governing bodies have done a huge amount of work on bringing more women on to boards, because these are women who have skills and confidence and who are bringing a diversity of thought and perspective but also a passion for women and for accessibility and the benefits that that can provide.

I also mentioned PE teachers. They are really strong role models—not just female PE teachers, but male PE teachers who show that support for women. We often come back to the idea of coaches being role models, and there are more male coaches than female coaches. There are more male volunteers than female volunteers in sport, and I suggest that one of the underlying issues is time. One of the main reasons that people give for not volunteering is that they do not have time, and the people who are least active are, again, single mothers in deprived areas and women more generally. I imagine that that is no accident.

Therefore, one of our big questions is: how do you give people time? Where do people spend most of their time? For a lot of people, that is at work. I think that we discussed that with the committee during the last inquiry. We said that we were pushing the idea of a wellbeing employer. What is a wellbeing employer? It might be someone who gives their employees a four-day working week. I know that you have raised that before, Gillian Mackay, and it is something that we have discussed. It is about being an employer who gives their staff time to be physically active and to volunteer. That would benefit everybody, but I would like to think that the people who might benefit from it the most are women.

Eilidh Paterson from Scottish Student Sport gave some great evidence about the fact that more women than men are members of student clubs, but then they go into working environments where they work 9 to 5 or there is not that same flexibility, and women also go into more caring roles. We create systems that make it difficult for people to be as active as they would like to be. Maybe we would have more female coaches and female volunteers as role models if women had time, so let us not make cost a barrier to giving that time. Let us make employers think that, actually, that also helps people’s wellbeing. At a time of a really difficult recruitment market, that might make it easier for employers to recruit and retain staff. Therefore, that is a huge part of the issue.

Another factor is men being positive role models. They are half the population and they are an incredibly important part of addressing the issue. I know that that has been raised with the committee and that there have been discussions about Andy Murray, but there will be other incredibly strong role models who are saying, “Actually, my mum was an incredibly positive influence.” Whether they happen to be as cracking a coach as Judy Murray is a different question, but men are incredibly important role models.

We need to provide people with time but we also need to talk about where we are profiling these role models. Each year, during Scottish women and girls in sport week, we do a bit of work on profiling amazing women who are doing amazing things in sport. We will share that with the committee, if that is helpful, but we made some videos of women who have received honours through sport recently—incredible women who have changed access rights in Scotland. One of the things across sport and physical activity that we would probably all be most proud of is the fact that we have world-leading access rights. There were some really strong women who drove that forward, and they are continuing to do that in many different spaces, but where are we championing them? Within our communities and in life generally we need to talk them up more, which is where the media need to play a strong role.

Those role models exist and we want more of them, but we also need to make it a place that is comfortable so that people think, “If I’m a role model to one person in what I do, that works.” How can we make it easier for people to find those role models that will inspire them?

I would like to pick up on what Kim Atkinson said about working with boards to bring in diversity. David Ferguson will back up the fact that our research from a couple of years ago shows that that is not the case. I have not seen major improvements in the past couple of years, and it is really important that we look at that.

Part of the statement in the report—which is on our website—says that some governing bodies do not see the benefit of diversity on their boards, which is shocking. A lot of the issues that we will discuss today could be helped by having much more diverse and inclusive boards that understand the issues and that are there when decisions are made to ensure that everyone gets a fair crack at the whip. That is really important.

We continue to fund sports that do not have diverse boards. If we have the strength to change things—financial strength—we have to use that for benefit, because until we get diversity and inclusion on the boards we will not solve the problem.

Based on that report, we are working with the Scottish Association for Mental Health on a women in sports leadership course. We did a pilot scheme for three months and we worked with young people on it; it is for young people, by young people. Our research on the scheme showed that the top two major issues were self-confidence and mental health. We have to build young women up before we can build up role models, because giving young women the title of role model puts a burden on their shoulders. We need to start working collectively to create an army of young women who are fit, healthy and confident, and it has to come from the top, because if those at the top get the culture right and that emanates down, we will see a change. However, until that happens, I am not sure that we will.

Can I come back in on that point?

Yes, but very briefly because other people want to come in.

Okay. Does anybody else wants to come in on what Maureen McGonigle said about diversity and making sure that it goes wider? What are organisations doing about targets, action plans and ensuring that we have diversity? Kim Atkinson, you are nodding.

I am, because that is a tremendously important point.

I slightly disagree with Maureen, although I agree that diversity is important. We work with governing bodies through our on board for sport programme—it is the only programme that exists in that space in the voluntary sector, with the support that sportscotland provides. As part of that work, we do an annual survey of our members. The average ratio on boards is 35 per cent female to 65 per cent male. The aspiration is for a 50:50 ratio, but the average size of a sports board is nine, so unless we cut somebody in half, a 50:50 ratio is quite difficult to achieve. Usually, sports governing bodies carry one vacancy at any time, so 35 per cent female to 65 per cent male is actually a pretty good split, and it represents where they are. Yes, the ratio could be 35 per cent male to 65 per cent female, but we were in a position a number of years ago when the current ratios were not the case. Governing bodies are treating that as incredibly important and are very passionate about it.

I absolutely agree with Maureen’s point about confidence. I do not agree with quotas and targets and I feel incredibly passionate about that. My first board role was on the sportscotland board when I was 22, so women in governance is something that I have been very passionate about for a very long time, but it takes confidence to put yourself forward and it takes a little bit of time to build that confidence up; throwing women into those positions is not helpful.

Our on board for sport programme tries to identify women who have enthusiasm to be on a board. We talk with them and discuss what they want to be and where we could match them with somebody—we are looking at setting up a buddying and mentoring scheme. There are opportunities for women to get involved, but—exactly as Ailsa Wyllie said—women say: “Gosh! I have nothing to offer.” I had a conversation exactly like that last week, with a phenomenal woman who is very senior in a number of strong, high-profile businesses and she said, “What would I have to offer?” That is a very female question. I said, “Are you kidding? All of our governing bodies would bite their hands off to have you!” She said again that she was not sure what she would have to offer, so I asked whether she would like to have a conversation with somebody, told her that I was happy to be there with her and suggested some of the questions that she might need to ask. We need to work to provide women with confidence and we are doing work on that across the sector. Quotas will not be helpful; they will push things back.

We are running two sessions on developing confidence and skills next week, which is volunteers week. We are doing one with the Scottish Government and one with the financial sector to tell people how they can volunteer, how they can get involved in boards and to tell them the many ways that they can do that, because that is key.

I am going to bring in David Torrance.

Maureen McGonigle wants to come in.

If I could add one point, the governing bodies have to ensure that the space into which they are bringing women is a welcoming one. Normally, they take them in to tick a box. It then becomes very difficult, women leave and it breeds the thought process of, “I’m not welcome there, why would I bother, I am a busy woman.” We need to look at those things a lot more clearly and make sure that the space is welcoming for women.

Good morning to the panel. I have spent the morning looking at your social media sites—your Twitter and Facebook accounts—and the number of followers that you have. Social media is probably a passion of mine because, no matter what we do, it is the easiest way to communicate with anybody now and to encourage young women into sport and leadership roles, especially with TikTok.

In her very first statement to the committee, Ailsa Wyllie touched on the topic of influencers. What are you as governing bodies doing to use influencers and sites such as TikTok to connect with young women out there and encourage them into sport?

I am not an expert in social media, but we know the importance of influencers and realistic influencers for our girls and young women.

A lot of the social media that sportscotland puts out across our channels is driven by consultation with our young people. We have a national young people’s sport panel, which has 20 young people on it. Of those who are on it for the current two-year period, 14 are female. I echo my previous points and note that we are seeing a lot of girls stepping forward from our schools and communities in Scotland to take on those roles.

Our young people’s sport panel hosts our sports hour every month. At the beginning of every month—the first Monday of the month—we go out on Twitter for an hour and talk about current sporting issues around physical activity and sport. Again, the young people are feeding back to us that they want to be the role models who are out there, and so when we give them that confidence and speak to them and listen to them, it builds them up so that they can then showcase to other young people what they could be doing in that regard.

From the performance point of view, we also see female athletes such as Hannah Miley and Eilish McColgan stepping forward. There are Scottish female athletes out there who are performing on the world stage and talking about a lot of the challenging issues, which are barriers, that girls and young women face throughout their lives. For example, they are speaking about periods and the fact that that really challenges them when they are competing internationally. That is a positive move in the right direction.

We have not got it right at the moment. We know the power of social media, and we can see that it will become only more and more prominent through the years. We therefore need to take that area seriously. Based on our experience, involving young people in what is going out on the channels is certainly a step in the right direction.

We move to the theme of inequalities. Gillian Mackay will lead on questions.

Good morning to the panel.

The point has been made that we need to increase the visibility of disabled women in sports. How can that be achieved with regard to women with hidden disabilities, including people with mental health conditions?

I will pick on Kim Atkinson first.

Briefly, on David Torrance’s point about social media and influencers, I am very rudely going to turn the tables and say that the first week in October is women and girls in sport week and that you will all be getting an invitation from us—as will every MSP—to make a video about why sport and physical activity are important to you and why they are important for women and girls.

I invite each member of the committee—if that is okay, convener—to support that. You are all influencers. I bet that you all have an awful lot of social media followers. I am not joking—I think that that is incredibly important. The most-watched videos that we have made at the SSA—we are a staff of six, so there are not a lot of us—are one about a physically active woman being a role model to her daughter and one about a father who is the role model for his daughter. That is perhaps food for thought.

On disabilities, I am delighted that the committee called in—absolutely rightly so—Lynne Glenn from Scottish Disability Sport. That organisation does an amazing amount of amazing and award-winning work in trying to move that agenda forward and in a very small space, by which I mean on a small budget. I know that the message that it continually puts forward is about inclusion, and rightly so, but we have to be quite specific about it.

When we say that it is about everyone, the fact that disability is part of that is sometimes lost. I think that we need to have a specific focus. You are right about what people would or would not regard as a disability, which is a challenge. However, Scottish Disability Sport has an inclusion model—we need to work to the guidance that that provides. The model, as well as support, is provided across all governing bodies, and it indicates how things can be more inclusive, how games can be adapted and why PE is so important.

10:00  

It took SDS longer than anyone would have hoped to embed its award-winning training programme in every education provider and to get everyone to take part in its award-winning disability inclusion training. That training will make sure that every PE teacher knows how to support someone who has a disability as they go into schools, first as teachers and then as PE teachers. Everyone who has been on that course says that they are a better teacher—not a better PE teacher, but a better teacher overall—as a result. It took a long time for the organisation to get that course rolled out. It was difficult to get support from partners, but what it has done is incredible.

We now need to look at what that means for health professionals. If we are working with the education sector successfully, we could say to health professionals, “You’re seeing someone with a disability, whatever that may be. Here are ways that they could be active and get involved in sports. Here are some community avenues and opportunities they could benefit from.”

I could not be more supportive of the incredible work that Scottish Disability Sport does; more power to its elbow. It is doing great work with the get out get active programme in Tayside—I think that that was referred to in one of the evidence papers, which said that we needed to provide more support to the organisation so that it can roll that out. Although we talk about sport and physical activity changing lives, Scottish Disability Sport talks about sport and physical activity saving lives. That is the level of its importance.

Absolutely. We also encourage sporting figures to be more open about stress, anxiety and depression; we have come a long way in that. People who have those mental health conditions may not necessarily come under Scottish Disability Sport’s remit, but will participate in organised sport and other physical activity. How do we better support people who have specific diagnoses? I am thinking in particular of people who have bipolar disorders, schizophrenia or personality disorders, about which there is less understanding and awareness. How do we ensure that those people are welcome in sport and that they are understood by their team mates, coaches and others in order to ensure that they can get the best support out of what they are doing? David Ferguson is nodding, so I will go to him.

I agree with everything that you have said. As I said earlier, I am a coach and have been for around 30 years for young people at different levels. For the past 12 years, I have coached girls. I have two girls of my own—that is often the way that you get brought into coaching. I know that sportscotland does a lot around that, so I will hand over to Ailsa Wyllie to speak about that.

However, speaking as someone who has been involved in sport for a long time, I do not think that there is enough recognition across the Scottish Parliament or the Scottish Government of the value of sport and physical activity for mental health. I have heard a lot of discussion about treatment for mental health, yet there has been such a decline in extracurricular sports, drama and music. To those of us who work with children and young people, it is not a surprise that children, and particularly teenagers, are really struggling with their mental health and are under pressure, because we have taken away an awful lot of the things that help them to escape the pressure of the classroom or their studies. A lot of that has gone.

I work with girls all the time and I have discussions with them about their mental health, to the extent that they are happy to talk to me about it. I think that, as coaches, it is really important that we educate ourselves about how to do that and that we allow ourselves to do it. Parents, particularly mothers, regularly—every season—say to me, “I have not seen my daughter in such a happy place as when she comes off the bus, having had a trip away on a Saturday morning to play hockey. She is not on her phone all morning and she is not bothered about social media. She comes back and has had a real escape. I have not seen her like that for months, if not years. When I see her, she says that she is fine and goes into her room. I do not see her for hours.”

Sport provides something that I think that we have taken for granted. We really need the help of politicians and others in Scotland to start to put it at the centre of mental health and wellbeing.

Our vision is to have an active Scotland where everyone benefits from sport. Our commitment to inclusion underpins everything that we do.

On how we are realising that and bringing it to life, we are working with a range of national partners, some of which—such as Scottish Disability Sports and the Scottish Association for Mental Health—have appeared before the committee. We are in the process of developing a partnership with Enable Scotland, which is about getting more people with a disability into the workplace.

Those partnerships bring an understanding of the issues and barriers that are faced by people with disabilities. We are working on training programmes to upskill our workforce and to raise the profile and awareness of the various issues that are faced by people in taking part.

I will describe what some of that means in real terms. For example, through our active schools network, we had a bespoke SDS inclusive practice programme designed, which is a training programme to upskill our workforce so that they better understand how they can be more inclusive in how they go about organising and co-ordinating activities locally.

We are aware that, as David Ferguson pointed out, coaches are now the front-facing people: they are the ones who are listening to and hearing from young people themselves, who are talking about a lot of these issues. The upskilling of the workforce—not just the professional invested posts, but our voluntary network of coaches—is absolutely key, and we are working with our partners in and around the training that we can put on for our staff.

I will come back on that briefly, convener—

Maureen McGonigle wants to come in, so I will let her in first.

Recent research from Women in Sport on Covid—I am sorry that I had to bring up the C-word—says that

“teenage girls are experiencing worrying mental health issues and report being less happy, more anxious and increasingly dissatisfied with their appearance”,

and that the pandemic has, in many instances, simply

“amplified these issues”.

That is something that we have not discussed today, although I am sure that you have discussed it many times. The subject of unseen health issues is very important, and we should maybe delve into it more deeply in the future.

On that specific point, I suggest three actions. First, while a mandated two hours or two periods of PE is fab, it does not apply to secondary 5 or 6. At what is arguably the most stressful point in any child’s life—and again, a key drop-off point for women—they do not have the mandated hours of PE. Addressing that would be one action.

Secondly, there seems to be a paradox in that we talk about equality underpinning everything that we do—we say that, because it is absolutely right, and it is true—but we measure on numbers. We say, “How many coaches, or members, have you got?” or “How many people were at that session?” Some of the people who face the challenges that Gillian Mackay talked about might need a bit more time and encouragement through a different pathway. If we are measuring based on numbers, we cannot underpin that with a focus on equalities.

Sport needs to change structurally, and that requires a conversation with Government about changing what we measure to ensure that we are able to focus on equalities, and not saying, “But we also need to work on numbers.”

The third part concerns mental health—exactly as you say, convener; I know that it is a passion of yours. Sport and physical activity have an impact across every national outcome, and every sustainable development goal, that I can think of. However, if we look at the relevant national outcome, we see that it is about health and sport, and if we look at the detail, it is simply about health. The SSA, on behalf of our members, will be responding to the current consultation on that to say that what we want—we would very much welcome the committee’s support on this—is a new national outcome that is about sport and physical activity, because of the contribution that that makes.

If wellbeing is at the heart of the national performance framework, as it says it is, is there another activity that supports physical, mental and social wellbeing more than sport and physical activity? That will be our submission on behalf of members, and we would very much welcome the committee’s support on that.

That would provide somewhere where we can say that people, and women and girls, being physically active is everybody’s responsibility, and something for which everybody is accountable in a different way.

That is great, thank you.

David Ferguson, you touched on the issue of the data picture in Scotland. Do you, and the other witnesses, believe that that picture is sufficient to measure female participation in sport? Is the data in a form that is collected centrally and collated and analysed? Is there any opportunity to further improve that? Are we making informed decisions? How does the data look to you, and how could it be improved?

The Observatory for Sport in Scotland was created in 2016 because of the huge void in data and research happening in Scotland around sport and physical activity, and the linking of that to wider health and wellbeing issues. It is not about looking at how many people are taking part in sport—although, as Kim Atkinson mentioned, that is how it is monitored in Scotland. We know that a lot of the figures on participation from sports governing bodies—this is not to be critical of them—are nonsense figures, because a lot of those bodies are having to guess and look how many people come to festivals or so on. Those bodies are looking into tightening up and improving the data, but that is how sportscotland monitors. It asks questions such as, “How many children have you got?” “How many coaches have you got?” or “How many people have been through?”, so a lot of the figures are not very accurate.

Proper research on sport is not being carried out. We have the Scottish household survey and the Scottish health survey, but other countries have national sports surveys to help them properly understand exactly how many people are taking part, who those people are and how regular or irregular that participation is. They look at things such as the barriers to activity and what the main issues are.

To answer your question, then: no—we are nowhere near having the amount of data and insight, from quantitative and qualitative research, that we need and that many other countries rely on. A lot of the surveys that you see and quotes that you hear are from organisations such as Women in Sport and Sport England, and they use English data, or UK data with heavily English cohorts. We really need a significant improvement in the funding of research and data collection in Scotland. There is no doubt about that.

Thanks. Maureen McGonigle, I think that you were nodding. Do you want to offer your view, or are you just agreeing?

I am nodding in agreement with David Ferguson. I think it is important to understand where we are, and a lot of the information that we get comes from Women in Sport. I second what David is saying.

Are there any further comments?

There is a question about data and a question about monitoring. There is an old adage that you measure what you value, and you value what you measure.

Flora Jackson will be closest to the Scottish household survey and the Scottish health survey parts of this, but I will say that there is an evidence base and there is what we are trying to prove.

Governing bodies and others that are in receipt of public funding are rightly accountable for public funding—I make no bones about that, and no one will complain about that. However, we monitor and measure everything to the millionth degree, to the point that at times I worry that we are focusing more on monitoring and measuring than we are on delivery. We have to tick so many sets of boxes to say that we have this and that particular data. I am not saying that we do not need data, but we should be clear on what we are monitoring and why.

Significant rationalisation could be done. Also, if we are talking about valuing the benefits of sport and physical activity—we have had this conversation with our members—we should ask every person who is a member of a sports club or a member of a gym four questions: “Do you feel physically better because you have been active?”, “Do you feel in a better mental health space because you have been active?”, “Did you learn any new skills or develop any confidence?” and “Did you make any friends?” If that is what we are measuring, let us have a conversation about that. If everybody measured those same things, we might get to a different place.

We still need to understand the demographics of the people who are participating, because that is how we identify gaps and understand what we need to do differently, but we monitor things to death sometimes. Considering the small amounts of money that some governing bodies and clubs get—and this would be true across the whole voluntary sector—the amount that is being used for monitoring and measurement takes away from their actual delivery.

There is a fine balance to be struck, but I think there is a need to rationalise what it is that we are valuing. Let us measure what we value and not have to measure everything to death.

That is a helpful point about balance.

I also want to touch on an issue that has been raised with previous panels about barriers to women accessing sport at elite level and the pathways for that access. Do you have any examples of women facing those barriers? The examples that have been cited are mainly about the ability to maintain an income that enables the person to participate and to sustain their participation at an elite level. Are there any good models or exemplars from one sport that could be carried over into other sports? Do you have any insights into how we can capture best practice in that regard?

The sportscotland institute of sport is the programme that looks after and funds our athletes who are on the performance pathway. It is for people in team sports or individual sports who are looking to achieve on the Olympic or Commonwealth games stage. Its funding is spread equally across the male and female athletes who are coming through.

Governing bodies and our clubs help to support the regional performance pathway. When a young person is going down a specific sport pathway in a local authority, there are various stages where they might be picked up by a regional team or a regional approach that supports them at the local authority level. There are many models of sports governing bodies supporting younger athletes who are on that pathway. Scottish Rugby and Scottish Hockey, for example, have teams from age-group level, and those teams feed into the elite international athletes.

I will jump back very quickly to the data side of things—obviously, sportscotland is responsible for collection and collation of the data across all of our funded and invested programmes. We monitor and collect data and information through the active schools programme, our community sport hubs and governing bodies.

10:15  

One part of that is the numbers and figures, which help us to see where we are and give us that national picture. For instance, we know that more than 100,000 girls and young women were active within the active schools programme over the past full year that we collected the data.

There is more that we can do to bring the data from all of our different programmes together in order to see where not just girls are active but where everyone is active across the invested areas. A huge part of what we are thinking about is educating our workforce to understand and use the data to make better decisions. We are really passionate about the sharing and learning aspect. It is about not only having the information but people being able to look at the data in their local context when they get that report back in order to address inequalities at the local level. We want people to look at the figures from a local community perspective and understand what changes they can make, whether that is in the next year or the coming term, to help to address what they see through the figures that they are getting. Sharing and learning about the impact, which is the qualitative information that goes alongside the numbers, is hugely important. We are showcasing the good practice examples, and people can see and learn from other things that are working within their communities.

Do we need to do more to feed that back, particularly to local authorities? It seems to me that a lot of decisions are end-of-year financial decisions because, in order to balance a budget, there is a menu of pretty painful decisions that have to be made. Those decisions are not necessarily well informed about whether cutting something to save £X is pushing the problem somewhere else in the system, which might cause exclusion from sport and, therefore, mental health and physical health impacts. Is that something that we need to improve in Scotland?

Yes—there are always improvements to be made in and around that, and we absolutely recognise the landscape that our partners are working in at the moment. We are supporting and protecting the workforces where we can, and an absolute priority of sportscotland is protection of the investment in our current workforces, so that we have the people on the ground who are able to deliver. However, I agree that we could do more.

Stephanie Callaghan has a brief supplementary question on that issue.

We spoke earlier about how single mothers are least likely to get involved in sport, how mothers put their children first and how the situation would be better if only women had more time. How do we ensure that women make it a priority to look after their physical and mental health by getting involved in sport and activities? Perhaps the pregnancy and postnatal periods are an opportunity to do that.

Lots of mums prioritise their children and go to breastfeeding groups and toddlers groups, so why are we not looking at them going to activities and sports groups as well? We need to get the message out to those parents that, if they keep themselves active and get involved in sports, that will be a huge benefit for their children. Is that an area that we should be looking to develop, so that we can bring through the next generation of young people? That question goes first to David Ferguson. It would also be good to hear from Flora Jackson, and I can see Kim Atkinson nodding.

That is a really good point. When I first got involved with the OSS, one of the interesting things that I came across was a bit of research that shows that mothers are the most important role models in relation to whether children—girls and boys—take up sport. I have now seen that research done several times in different countries and it always says the same thing, so I tend to believe it. Where there is a mother in the household who will take that child to sport, that child is more likely to be involved in sport and physical activity for the rest of their life. Lots of research shows the mother to be the most important individual. Therefore, obviously, it is about helping mothers.

We have discovered that, with that decline over the past 20 years, we have a generation of parents who have never been involved in sport. Mothers ask me interesting questions about children having butterflies in their tummy before going to their sports; they say, “I’ll keep them off, because they’re obviously sick.” When I first had that conversation, I was quite taken aback. Now, I expect it and say, “It’s just butterflies; it’s just nerves.” As soon as the mothers know that, they are happy to send the child to the sport and it is not a problem, so the children go and take part.

We see some really good examples of mother and toddler clubs that are now going out walking. The OSS sees a group of mothers going on a walk and doing something active with their babies as sport. The important thing is that there is support. I know that the committee is looking for ideas and interventions that it can get on the back of, so that members can hear about things that could be introduced. A lot of what you will hear today will come back to the fact that it is about the facilities and the opportunities to take part in sport.

Some politicians have told me that the problem is that girls and women do not want to do sport. Do not fall into that trap. My experience and the research tell us that that is not the case. You will be amazed by how many people—even women who say that they are not sporty and do not want to do sport—will take up a sporting activity that is put on in their environment if it is easy, affordable, safe and has a focus on fun. I am sure that, in the past, Mr Gulhane will have encouraged patients to do something and they will have got involved in it, made a quick turn around and said that they quite enjoyed it. The key is about ensuring that the opportunity is there.

On what you said about mother and toddler clubs, it would help if this country had a stronger focus on the health and wellbeing outcome of sport, from the top to the bottom, and if we held councils and others accountable for the health and wellbeing benefits of sport. That means holding them accountable not just for putting sport on, but for ensuring that we address inequalities and poverty. I go back to the example that I used earlier about the Dutch, who have gone down the road of saying that they will give funding only if they can see evidence of those benefits. If we did that, we would see clubs, groups and societies making more of an effort to put activities on alongside mother and toddler groups or whatever kind of club they are running.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that mums do not want to do sport. They want to do it, but in a fun and safe environment. That is what we have heard from the research. We need to create the opportunities.

I am sorry, but we need to move on to our last theme because we only have about eight minutes left. I ask people to keep the questions and answers short, so that we can get as much information as possible.

In one of your previous answers, you said that you have data that shows that 100,000 women participate in sport. What is the ethnic breakdown of that data?

It depends what dataset we are looking at. We are aware that we need to do more on that. In the past, we did not gather data that was as widespread as we could have, but we recognise the importance of that and we are working with our partners on it.

Do you collect data on ethnicity?

Yes, we are now gathering that data through our active schools programme and governing body information. In the past, we did not, but we recognise the importance of doing so and we are currently trying to get that right with our partners.

To increase participation in the future, we need to know what is going wrong at the moment and what the problems are. That is the whole point of having everyone here. I feel that there is a big difference, even within girls’ and women’s sport, with people’s ethnic backgrounds because, culturally, that makes a difference. David Ferguson spoke about having a safe space in a person’s area. That is very important, so ethnicity data is vital. As you are now collecting that data, what do you think that you will do differently to try to get people from different ethnic backgrounds to play sport?

We are considering quite a number of things. In Scotland, we are engaging in a new partnership with Sporting Equals, which is a United Kindgom-wide race discrimination charity, to further our understanding of the barriers to participation. We want to understand the barriers in Scotland, rather than take information and data from elsewhere in the UK. That partnership will help with training and raising awareness and understanding and, as I said, it will help us to understand all the barriers that people face that stop them participating. It is about understanding the reasons why and what is not available for them where they live, so that they can participate.

We want our workforces to look at and understand that key area. It comes back to local need. Across the whole sporting system, from the grass roots through to club sport and performance sport, we want to understand where the barriers are and what the figures are, so that we can learn about who is not participating and approach it in communities by putting things on in the right places so that people can attend and participate.

Fantastic.

Kim Atkinson, in your submission, you spoke about

“a lack of both in-depth and longitudinal research in Scotland over the past 20 years.”

We have heard from David Ferguson and Ailsa Wyllie that some work is being done in that regard. Who should the responsibility for collecting the data fall on? Should it be the Scottish Government, or should it be organisations such as sportscotland and clubs?

That is an area in which we all play our part, and it goes beyond sport and physical activity. Let us be clear that we are talking about a budget—Ailsa Wyllie can confirm this—of £30 million, which is not huge given what we are trying to do. I argue that nothing else with such a small budget impacts on more people.

I think that everybody is keen to play their part. We require to be succinct about the information that we need, what we will try to do with it and how we will hold it so that it can be meaningfully assessed and reviewed. There is also a need to explain to people why it is important. When I am on a phone call to open an account or something like that, I often make the joke, “Do you want my blood group next?” Everyone requires a lot of data, and we as a society perhaps need to be open and transparent about what data we are gathering and why. It is exactly as Ailsa Wyllie said: we want the data because we want to make things better, to improve, to understand and to break down barriers. However, a lot of people are reluctant to give data, which makes things quite hard. A standard response is often to say, “I prefer not to say”.

We all have a role to play in working on that and moving things forward. Our governing bodies are working really hard on the issue, but there is a systems part behind that as well. A lot of governing bodies have no staff and are run by volunteers. That is not an excuse, but it makes things quite challenging. In addition, there is no information technology infrastructure behind such organisations to provide support. However, all of us working collectively makes that a little bit easier.

One of the key questions is with regard to local authorities. Earlier, the point was made about their accountability, given that they provide 90 per cent of investment in sport. We are talking about community sport. Local authorities are the big players here, guys. What are they being held accountable for? What are we challenging councillors on? Trusts are in incredibly difficult positions but doing really good jobs. We need to be asking the councillors and the councils different questions. The issue of accountability is a key question that I would be asking of them.

If I can just comment very briefly on Stephanie Callaghan’s question, if you told parents—

I am sorry—I will just pause you there. I am asking specific questions.

I will stay with Kim Atkinson when I ask my next question. David Ferguson spoke about how women and girls want to participate in sport. In your submission, Kim, you said that there is a gender gap by the age of 17 and 18, which is widening. By the time that girls reach that age, about 30 per cent

“describe themselves as ‘sporty’, compared with 58% of boys”.

You then say that the gap continues to widen into people’s 30s and 40s. What can be done about that? How can we address that gap? How can we get more participation?

We all talk about sport, but, as a general practitioner, I just want people to be more active. David Ferguson made the same point earlier. That is the first step and then, if a person becomes more active, they might do sport. The issue for me is that people become more active. How can we do that?

We did not put in a submission, so I am not sure whose figures those were; they were somebody else’s. However, I am very happy to talk to the point. Perhaps you would rather speak to the person who wrote that. I would be happy either way.

I am happy for you to answer.

Fine. It is about providing broad opportunity. I am passionate about sport and physical activity, and I genuinely believe that there is something out there for everybody. However, that varies by life stage and the time that people have. We know that the key indicator of life expectancy is how physically active you are. That speaks to Stephanie Callaghan’s point about mothers. If you want to live a longer life to see your kids—and maybe your grandkids—grow old, you will want to take part in physical activity.

It is about people having opportunities to be active in whatever way they would choose. Colleagues have made points with regard to people being informed about whatever activity they would like to be informed about. Colleagues have also spoken about the barriers throughout the discussion. It is about making sure that those opportunities exist locally. The challenge, which David Ferguson mentioned, is about facilities. If people cannot get into facilities, and there are not enough people to volunteer as coaches or as volunteers, those are barriers to anybody being active but it is more prevalent for women.

There needs to be breadth in opportunities—that is, there needs to be a number of activities, somewhere for people to go and people to make that happen. Those are massive areas that we are facing across sport.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, we have run out of time and have come to the end of this session. I thank the witnesses for their contributions as well as those who put in submissions to the inquiry and gave additional information.

10:29 Meeting suspended.  

10:40 On resuming—