Our final panel consists of senior representatives of the Scottish Police Authority. I am pleased to welcome Fiona McQueen, vice-chair; Lynn Brown, chief executive; and Alasdair Hay, board member.
I intend to run allow around 60 minutes for this session. I invite Fiona McQueen to make a short opening statement.
Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to attend this morning and to continue to contribute to the committee’s very helpful scrutiny of wellbeing across policing.
I begin by offering apologies from our chair, Martyn Evans, for his absence today, which is due to a family bereavement. As vice-chair of SPA, and chair of its people committee, I will step in for Martyn. As the convener said, I am joined by my fellow board member Alasdair Hay, who sits on the people committee and chairs our policing and performance committee, and our accountable officer and chief executive, Lynn Brown.
Woven throughout the authority’s governance and scrutiny of Police Scotland are matters of workforce wellbeing. Earlier, the committee heard from representatives of police staff associations and Unison. Our chair holds regular meetings with representatives of those bodies. In addition, our people committee’s oversight is greatly enhanced by the workforce voice, as those representatives attend the committee’s meetings and are most helpful in giving us their perspective.
On the wider front, all aspects of the work of our committees—from approving a business case for the roll-out of new software to probing a rise or fall in demand or performance, or considering the time taken to investigate complaint and conduct matters—have a people perspective that they explore in detail.
In our submission we explained that the authority has centred its oversight on three specific areas: leadership commitment; assessing whether clear organisational plans are in place to address wellbeing requirements; and measuring progress on, overseeing and reviewing how staff wellbeing is measured, reported and acted upon.
From a leadership perspective, we are in no doubt about the chief constable’s commitment to wellbeing. Secondly, we are confident that the wellbeing action plan draws together, in a comprehensive manner, the range of wellbeing activities and initiatives, both preventive and reactive, that are essential for the workforce of a large emergency service.
11:45The Lifelines Scotland project is an example of learning from other services that we have brought in, and we have overseen Police Scotland bringing in, as a direct consequence of our holding an event on trauma that was successful in enabling learning about and reflection on what Police Scotland’s workforce needs.
However, delivery is key. The third strand, which is about measuring progress and understanding impact, will flow from tracking the specific actionable and measurable steps that underpin the wellbeing action plan. Major steps have already been taken and, going forward, we will build on those foundations as part of our commitment to improving wellbeing. I expect to see progress being reported to our people committee.
My final point is on officer and staff suicides. I echo others’ comments that every single suicide represents a devastating tragedy that is deeply felt. I hope that Police Scotland’s submission and our input today will give the committee more assurance about our corporate awareness of the officers and staff who have died by suicide.
As part of our oversight of such matters, Martyn Evans has met Rose Fitzpatrick, the former deputy chief constable of Police Scotland who is now chair of the national suicide prevention leadership group, which was established to champion and drive suicide prevention measures in Scotland.
Separately, he met Sergeant Laura Gibson of Police Scotland, who published a research report for the Churchill Fellowship on wellbeing and resilience in law enforcement. Sergeant Gibson’s research focuses on the concept of police officer resilience and explores US police service training programmes on providing officers with the skills required to cope with the demands of their roles. We expect to see evidence of that work being integrated into Police Scotland’s response to wellbeing. In addition, it should ensure that safe systems of work and workload for all officers and staff are built into the revised model of policing that it is developing.
Thank you very much for the opportunity to make an opening statement. My colleagues and I will be pleased to take any questions.
Thank you very much. That is very helpful.
I will kick off our questioning by picking up on a point that you made early in your opening remarks. It is about your work to ensure that clear plans will be in place at Police Scotland, one of which will be the wellbeing action plan. I am interested in hearing a little more about what that will involve.
I would also like to raise a point that I raised with the chief constable, and which David Threadgold also mentioned. Police officers feel that there is a disconnect from their immediate line managers, which can potentially impact on their wellbeing and on opportunities for a preventative approach to work as it could do. Do you intend to scrutinise that aspect in the context of how Police Scotland is delivering such plans, particularly with regard to mental wellbeing?
Very much so, convener. We are beginning to tie down a number of aspects with Police Scotland, which are about measurement.
As I said in my opening remarks, representatives of the Scottish Police Federation, ASPS, Unison and Unite attend our people committee’s meetings, and hearing their voice is incredibly helpful. When we are overseeing what happens within Police Scotland, the staff organisations give us their perspective on whether they agree with what is being said and, perhaps more importantly, on what could work or make things better. We could look at indicators, but we are having them refined so that we can measure whether the work that has been implemented is having the desired effect.
For example, if we are saying that debriefing is happening and that services are available through Lifelines, we would expect those to have an impact on officer and staff wellbeing, so we might ask where the evidence is.
On matters such as sickness absence, we are not always looking at a reduction. This morning, we have heard about the culture, and it is important that people feel confident to come forward, particularly in a policing environment where the culture has perhaps been to say, “Yes, I’m okay. I don’t need to come forward or be off sick.”
We will be looking at sickness absence and the range of that. We are not going to be looking at the average across 22,000 staff. We have had some indications from officers who have left the service that a low sickness absence rate can also be a red flag, if it means that people are afraid to be off sick. Therefore, we will look at the range of sickness absence right across individual specialty areas, as well as the average rate.
We will also look at the uptake of the employee assistance programme. In the first instance, we would certainly expect to see more uptake. We cannot continue to see increase on increase on increase without being alerted to the fact that something is wrong, but overall, we want to see an increase in the uptake of the employee assistance programme. In the staff survey, we will want to see evidence, year on year, including in the pulse surveys, that things are improving, and we need to learn from ill health retirements and exit surveys.
Those are examples of where we would look to see evidence from Police Scotland that what it is doing is making a positive difference to the workforce.
I want to come in on that. It is good to hear about the importance of measurement, as you said. I suppose that a lot of that is around the delivery of wellbeing responses and approaches. However, the example that I spoke about earlier was perhaps more of an operational matter.
I am sorry, convener. The officer to staff ratio is also important, and that will also feature. Again, we need to go into more granular detail with Police Scotland, because, at the high level, the officer to staff ratio might look as though it is acceptable, but, when we look across the country, we might find that there is a very high ratio that is unmanageable for some officers. We are looking at that and at refining how much we take from that figure. The quality of that relationship, how it moves and how teams are grouped together also matter, so it is more than a straightforward number; we need to look beyond the numbers to ensure that the quality of that relationship and the team building are what we need.
Good morning. We are hearing, and there are indications, that staff absences because of psychological disorders are rising. Do you have any idea what the reason for that is? Has the nature of policing changed in recent years?
Our role as an oversight body means that we have to oversee that. There have been some changes in society, but I will hand over to my colleague Alasdair Hay, who chairs the policing performance committee.
One of the things that came across as I listened to the evidence that was given earlier by the trade unions and statutory staff bodies and by the chief constable was the importance of culture. We recognise—I myself have more than 40 years’ service in the emergency services—the change in culture, in that people are now prepared to come forward and say that they have issues with their mental health, and I really welcome that.
When we reflect on the fact that one in four people in society will have an issue with their mental health at some point in their lives, it should not surprise us that people in the police service might experience issues at different points, especially given some of the unique aspects of the job. Previously, the culture was that people would not speak or be open about these things. However, the fact that we are seeing an increase is concerning—absolutely—and there should be no complacency about that.
In some ways, the increase should also be welcomed, because, if we know where we are and we can understand what people are experiencing, we can really begin to bring them the right help. Those trends and the causes of sickness absence in Police Scotland are absolutely considered by the Scottish Police Authority performance committee.
I ran out of time to ask the previous two panels of witnesses about that, but I ask because I wonder whether the types of offences that police officers are dealing with are changing. Are those offences potentially more traumatic and, from your oversight perspective, is it the case that Police Scotland does not have the resources or the expertise yet to deal with that?
I will give the example of the internet, which is probably an obvious one. You said that you had been a police officer for 40 years—or you worked in emergency services for 40 years—so you will have seen a big change in that area of internet offences and online crimes. To go back to the initial question, I guess that I am asking whether part of the reason for the increase in psychological disorders is that the nature of policing is changing. Does Police Scotland have the ability and expertise to deal with that, or is it playing catch up?
I was not a police officer—
I am sorry. I quickly changed what I said because I knew that.
I will reflect on the chief constable’s evidence. We have seen an increase in psychological disorders in society, so society is changing, and, if society changes, the nature of policing changes with it. That will certainly have an impact, and that area could and should be explored more. Police Scotland has a focus on that at the moment.
However, the main point that I want to get across is that it is very concerning that people have psychological disorders and that it is an increasing trend in the performance statistics that we are looking at, so we need to get an insight and an understanding. However, I also welcome the fact that people are now prepared to come forward and begin to speak about these things, because that gives us a real opportunity to make a difference and to help people in a timely fashion.
Good morning. Suicide is, of course, a very sensitive subject and extremely complex, and I am fully aware of the Samaritan guidelines that you refer to in your submission. However, when I first asked the SPA about police suicides in May 2022 in this very committee, there was not even any process for recording the numbers. As of today, we know that 20 officers have lost their lives. Alasdair Hay, you have already referred to the culture changing, but that committee meeting was only two years ago. With hindsight, could the SPA have done more sooner?
There is always room for improvement, and it is important that we learn, reflect and move things forward. The operational independence of the chief constable and the SPA’s oversight are never blurred, but I think that the SPA’s people committee is getting clearer about our requirement of Police Scotland to demonstrate what it has looked at and reviewed. There is no doubt that learning from not just suicide, but ill-health retirement or other feedback from staff is incredibly important in our process of gathering assurance and evidence that there are safeguards for the workforce in Police Scotland.
We can always improve on what we are doing and how we are learning and moving forward. Therefore, we need to pay attention to the more granular level of information that we have about mental ill-health and distress in the workforce.
The SPA also said that it had asked Police Scotland whether work-related matters were potentially a contributing factor in relation to any of the deaths that were known about and that it was satisfied with Police Scotland’s response, which is that they were not a factor. However, the families of officers who died tell me that those very much were a contributing factor. In the light of that, will the SPA look at the matter again? I ask not least because it looks as though there has not been a fatal accident inquiry for any of those tragic deaths.
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As the chief constable and DCC Speirs have said, the fatal accident inquiry is a matter for the Crown. The discussions that I have had with Katy Miller, which I am satisfied will move forward, are about that whole learning piece.
It is important to learn how distress in the job is a contributory factor in suicide, post-traumatic stress disorder or feelings about traumatic events that officers and staff have. We have asked Police Scotland to learn from those tragic deaths in a sensitive and appropriate manner and by reaching out to families. That reaching out is not always welcome, but we need to find a way to do it in a sensitive and professional manner.
The chief constable has just told us about a rise in the number of assaults on Police Scotland officers by under-18s. Just last year, the SPA made a ruling that police cells were
“not an appropriate setting and not in the interests of the child”,
with the definition of “child” being a person under the age of 18.
Does that fairly profound and far-reaching position that the SPA arrived at have some bearing on the uptick in assaults on police officers by under-18s?
The pronouncement about where children are kept in custody came from a human rights-based approach to policing. It came from a conference of wider stakeholders—Police Scotland and the authority—where it was genuinely recognised that the most appropriate place for under-18s is a secure residential placement. We do not yet have the data on that, but the chief constable will be looking at it, because she has given that commitment about what is happening with under-18s.
The SPA chair has asked committee chairs to have three priorities for their committees. One of the priorities that I have chosen, with the support of my people committee colleagues, is a reduction in officer assaults, because we see that as absolutely critical to the safety and welfare of the workforce. We can take what you said into account when we look at stratifying where the assaults are happening—which Police Scotland has a good knowledge of—and at the assaults by under-18s.
I mentioned that particular ruling because it was made by non-elected individuals. I do not know whether any communication was made to the committee or to Parliament more generally about that decision.
I would not necessarily describe it as a ruling. We could come back to the committee with a broader outline of the timeline of the dialogue that we have had and the decisions that have been taken about how to go forward.
Police Scotland remains the only police force in the UK without body-worn cameras, and we have heard that their introduction has been delayed yet again. Does the SPA take any responsibility for that failure?
We have an oversight responsibility. With regard to challenging plans that come forward, once we do a lessons-learned exercise about the timeline of when it was hoped that body-worn video would be in place, compared with when it was actually in place, there will probably be learning to take from that.
The chief executive or Alasdair Hay might want to say more about that.
The authority and the resources committee have been really clear about that and have pushed for body-worn video. A few years ago, there was an assumption within policing that the authority was averse to technology, based on its experiences with the cyberkiosks. The authority made it clear that that was not the case and that, where there was public acceptance of technology being used to promote trust and confidence in policing, it should be pursued.
Two things have happened with that. The first is the use of technology in child sexual abuse cases, for officers who have to look at the evidence. Technology has helped them to reduce, from days to hours, the time that they have to spend doing that.
The second area is body-worn video, which the chair set out as a priority for him. We have been clear in public that body-worn video has to be delivered. My view is that a delay from September to March is not unacceptable because, for years and years, we have not had that technology.
In the past, the explanation has been given, quite rightly, that eight legacy forces had to come together and sort out other systems before they could turn their attention to body-worn video. The authority is clear that it has to be delivered and it is keeping the public focus on that through the committees.
To come back to that point, it is not just a delay from September to March—it has been a delay of more than 10 years. We have the only police force in the United Kingdom without body-worn cameras.
At some point, somebody from the police put a figure of £25 million on the cost, against an annual policing spend of £1.6 billion. The delay seems unacceptable. It was only when the chief constable came to this committee for the first time that we discovered that eight separate computer systems from the legacy forces were still operating. The SPA seems to have completely taken its eye off the ball. Where Police Scotland’s management has failed, surely it is the SPA’s job to ensure that Police Scotland gets it right.
In the past three years, one of the resources committee’s biggest focuses has been the delivery of body-worn video. It is a complex procurement process, which has been successfully conducted. It also has strong interdependencies with other projects within an overall programme. Sometimes, the interdependencies have not been fully recognised and taken into account.
We are pressing Police Scotland on programme management, on which it is already strong but is getting stronger. In the case of body-worn video, one of the challenges is network connectivity and the relationship with DESC, to ensure that all the timelines coincide.
I absolutely accept that we have an oversight responsibility. We will challenge those matters and continually press not only for delivery but for improvements in the approach, so that we do not get into those types of situations in the future.
Ben Macpherson has a short supplementary question.
I will follow the previous line of questioning. We are all aware of the difficulties with the i6 programme and the continued need for improvement in the overall infrastructure of Police Scotland’s IT systems. Will the roll-out of body-worn cameras be future proofed for further IT enhancement in the service?
It is difficult not to reflect on the past, because Police Scotland deserves a huge amount of credit for bringing together the eight legacy forces and the various systems that existed, while supporting and enabling delivery of front-line policing in all the areas.
Let us remember that there was also a significant cost saving.
Absolutely. The cost saving meant that £2 billion was returned to the public purse and could be spent on other priorities across Scotland. The arguments are there, but the challenge was not insignificant and Police Scotland deserves for credit for what it has achieved.
Once a single system is in place, some of the problems will not be faced in the future. When it comes to future proofing, it helps that we are dealing with one system and one set of priorities. Nobody can guarantee that there will be no challenges in the future, but I believe that there will be fewer risks once we have a single effective functioning organisation that has the proper management infrastructure, systems and technology in place.
I am just checking that the roll-out of body-worn cameras will last if and when there is a change to the software that is used at national level. Are we procuring technology that is going to last and be cohesive and coherent?
We look forward and include appropriate upgrades in the initial procurement processes. As systems come towards the end of their life it is necessary, at the right point in time, to bring forward the next procurement process in order to keep the systems alive. We have had such conversations in our various committees—specifically, in the resources committee.
Good afternoon.
I will go back to mental wellbeing among officers. I will not repeat my questions to the other two panels of witnesses, which related to training—or lack of training, according to the SPF. Are you satisfied that there is enough training? Supervisors and officers say that they do not have the appropriate skills to detect when there is a problem with a colleague.
I have no doubt that the evidence that we are getting at our people committee is that improvements need to be made. There is no question about that and we are making progress. A couple of weeks ago, we had a people committee meeting at which we talked about the lack of training and what is needed. At our next meeting, I will get a plan that demonstrates how we can catch up on some of the training that has been delayed and on what we are doing proactively about training for mental health and wellbeing.
The issue is wider. You heard from both the previous panels that there is a need to know and understand that one person in a team being quiet and another being rowdy could mean that both of them are struggling equally. We have heard that some people are just like machines—they can go on and on—and we have heard about others who might go to a child’s death and who have a child who is the same age.
A high level of skill is needed in managing the workforce on top of knowing and understanding other leadership behaviours that are needed to engage with the workforce and to manage and build the team. It is a highly skilled job. There is more to be done. I expect, from Police Scotland, evidence not just that training has been carried out—it is not, as David Threadgold would say, a tick-box exercise—but of improvement for the whole workforce.
Will that continue to be monitored?
Yes—very closely.
I have a question about staffing levels. There are reports that 945 officers are eligible to retire before next summer. It is important to say that Police Scotland plans for the highest number of recruits since its inception in 2013. You can confirm whether that is true. With that in mind, are you concerned about the immediate staffing levels? Is it on your radar that there could be a problem?
Looking at where we are is always on the risk register. Obviously, people need to give a number of months’ notice for retirement. They do not necessarily give a year’s notice—it could be three months—so retirements can happen quickly for all workforces. However, it takes two years for a probationer to complete their training in Police Scotland. Therefore, bringing people in, training them and getting them ready and fit for purpose in time for people leaving—they might not leave—is always a balance to be struck.
That is most certainly being kept in mind. We had a first iteration of new reporting at our previous committee meeting: the papers are available. That reporting shows what I would call a dashboard, and it shows with much greater clarity the number of leavers, why they are leaving and the number of probationers who are coming in.
You might be interested to know that, for the first time in Police Scotland’s history, we have a non-residential group of probationers coming in. Until now, training has always been residential. However, to provide a future focus on how we widen our access to probationer training, a non-residential programme is going on at Jackton.
When you talk about residential training, are you talking about Tulliallan?
Yes.
So the training is not all done there, now.
The non-residential training programme is a toe in the water. It is the first time that it has been tried. It is partly to try to increase numbers, but it is mainly, from an equality and diversity point of view, about determining how we support people who cannot go to Tulliallan for the residential programme and can manage training from home. It clearly needs to be closely evaluated.
The people committee is overseeing a number of factors to make sure that we have the right size of workforce.
12:15
I am particularly interested in leadership training. You spoke about managing the workforce. There is clearly a leadership role in that. We also spoke earlier about the amalgamation of eight forces into one. There was a cost-cutting exercise in that. Was some of the training that was previously delivered across forces interrupted or withdrawn as part of the amalgamation and was some of it leadership training? I might be wrong, but I have been curious about that, over the while. I am interested to hear a wee bit more about leadership training, particularly in the context of mental health and wellbeing, and in checking in on how that training is being delivered and is bearing out. It is almost about whether there is a quality assurance process around training.
I ask my colleagues to come in and help me.
We currently use the your leadership matters programme, which is an online programme with some in-person elements. Some of the feedback that we have had from the federation is that more needs to be done in person. We expect Police Scotland to evaluate the programme—which is being evaluated positively. A significant number of officers have gone through it.
I am not sure whether committee members were in post when there was a report from Gill Imery, the previous HM chief inspector of constabulary in Scotland, on training, particularly at senior levels such as superintendent—the area that would be covered by the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents. Her conclusion was that that had been neglected in the set-up of Police Scotland. There are reasons why that was the case, which Police Scotland set out at the time. There was recognition of that. The your leadership matters programme was introduced in response to that report. There was definitely a gap, which Police Scotland is trying to address.
Has there been any evaluation of the your leadership matters programme or are there plans to do that?
The people committee receives on-going reports on evaluation of the programme. On the whole, the evaluation is positive, but there has been advice from the Scottish Police Federation that a bit more training could be done in person.
I am sorry—I interrupted.
I do not have much to add. We understand that the focus of the your leadership matters programme is moving down to the first-line supervisory management level in the organisation—sergeants and inspectors—having started with the most senior officers. We have heard evidence about the importance of front-line managers having the right skills to support their staff in every way, particularly with mental health and wellbeing. I welcome the support that is being given to those front-line managers in the organisation.
It was noted at the previous policing performance committee meeting that the employee assistance programme provides a 24/7 support and advice helpline for line managers. If line managers have any specific and particularly complex people-related issues, they have online support. That is not the only tool, but we welcome it as an additional tool, alongside the training that they are getting.
I will come back to staffing levels. We already know that policing levels are at their lowest since 2007. We heard from witnesses on the previous panel about the challenges that they currently face. We heard from DCC Alan Speirs that staffing levels are budgeted at 16,600 officers, which is Police Scotland’s target. What levels do you see as being sufficient, and do you have any concerns about the upcoming budget?
As the chief constable said, the number is 22,000. When you need a warranted officer, you need a warranted officer: there is no question about that.
However, the whole workforce is important. Tomorrow, we will have a meeting of the oversight group on the revised model of policing, which will come to the authority’s meeting at the end of the month. That will take into account the changes in policing that the chief is looking for—more people on the front line—and changes to the roles and responsibilities of police staff, to see what they can do more effectively and efficiently than would be the case using a warranted officer.
Once that is in place—I will hand over to Alasdair Hay in a moment to talk about the policing performance committee—there will be something to do on how we triangulate right across our scrutiny and oversight to make sure that the workforce is sufficient. Part of that is about workforce wellbeing—attendance figures and attrition rates—so that we can make sure that we have a meaningful and stretching job for officers and staff, and so that they thrive, as the chief would say, in the workplace.
However, this is also about how we meet public demand and make sure that the performance of Police Scotland is where it should be. I ask Alasdair Hay to talk about the performance measures that are looked at.
Ultimately, it is for the chief constable to determine how many officers she needs in order to meet her statutory responsibilities and other expectations. She has clearly articulated what her priorities are. Police Scotland then has to determine how many officers, and with what skills, are required to deliver that. The organisation is currently working through that, as my colleague Fiona McQueen has just said, in its revised model of policing. At the same time, it is reviewing the model of local policing in Scotland. Work is therefore in process to determine how many warranted officers and other staff should be in that workforce of 22,000, and what their skills mix should be, to deliver a sustainable model of policing.
Once the chief constable has made that professional determination, we need to hold her to account for that, and to make sure that the intended outcomes are delivered. An outcomes-focused performance framework is in place. The chief constable spoke about presenting a vision for the service: she said that a three-year action plan will be put in place. An outcomes-focused performance framework will also be put in place for that.
In those performance frameworks, we will gather data, listen to narrative and look for insights from a cross-section of staff, their representatives, communities, local government and other stakeholders in order to provide us with an evidence base that demonstrates that the stated and intended outcomes are being achieved. We will gather that evidence in a very structured way. That is the value and the strong role of the Scottish Police Authority in relation to police numbers.
You asked about the budget. Given that the proportion of the budget for the workforce is so large, that budget is very important. I wonder whether our accountable officer, the chief executive, could say something.
Can you clarify something? You talked about warranted officers. Are they people who are basically on the front line—out in the street?
A warranted officer is a police officer, rather than police staff.
They are called that because they have a warrant card.
They have the powers of a constable.
Your question was about the budget for next year. We are formulating, with Police Scotland, our ask of the Government for the budget. That will be based on the three-year business plan. That was asked for by this committee last year when it looked at the budget. It was Mr Swinney, I think, who asked whether the model of policing was sufficient for society, given the level of crime and so on, and about how we wanted it to work and the role of technology. That is what the three-year business plan is about. It is based on that ask from the committee last year, and we will feed it into our ask of the Scottish Government.
On financial parameters, we will set out options against flat cash, depending on what that looks like. Flat cash is the current view; nothing more has been indicated on that. I understand, convener, that the committee will look at that in a bit more detail. We are formulating our ask at the moment.
Okay. I have one more quick question, which goes back to training. It is about the number of courses and how much focus there is on training. We heard from the first panel about a lack of training on human resources issues—that people were not always trained to the right standard. The SPF said that 3,500 officers were not safety trained. Does that number refer to warranted officers, who should be out on the streets?
We receive reports at our people committee. Officer safety training is refreshed; officers have training. Excellent health and safety data shows that maintaining that level of training improves officer safety. I have asked that information about when the backlog will be resolved be brought to the next meeting of that committee. It is not that the officers have never been trained; it is that they have not had refresher training, and it is important that they have that for their protection. Not all the people will be front facing. Some, as the chief constable talked about, will be in the middle office, but we are looking for the number to be reduced. It will always be the case that a small number of officers are out of training because of sickness absence or annual leave, for example. However, that number is not acceptable to us, and we expect it to be significantly reduced.
You are getting information on that.
Yes. We are actively monitoring the matter.
Good morning. My question is similar to Sharon Dowey’s. I do not recall Police Scotland using the phrase “warranted officer” in the past. An officer is, by definition, warranted. Is that not more an English term?
No—it is a police term. The previous chief constable, Sir Iain Livingstone, used to talk about the “warrant of a constable”. I apologise for confusing you with my shorthand for police officers versus police staff. Civilian staff working in custody or in the C3 division are not “warranted”.
I just wondered why we are now adopting that phrase. By definition, an officer has a warrant card. You will tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree. Is the definition being made because, through the reorganisation plan, you will introduce police community support officers—as England has done and which we do not have in Scotland—who do not have warrant cards?
No.
I am just a bit concerned that maybe Police Scotland is not being up front with us. Surely, if that is the plan, there should be full transparency.
There would absolutely be full transparency. I joined the Scottish Police Authority in April 2021 and have heard the term being used. It is a way to distinguish the office of constable from police staff. There are subtle but distinct differences in conditions and regulations. You heard this morning from David Malcolm that police staff cannot be required—although they may feel morally obliged—to do overtime. I apologise for any confusion, but there is no question of the term being used for that reason. It is used to make a distinction. There are—or there ought to be—16,600 warranted officers. There is no question of anything untoward or underhand about it.
An advert that was put out a month ago caused controversy because it said that civilians would be employed on the same salary as a police officer to do some of the jobs that police officers do. To my knowledge, we have not had such a development. I did not understand why you would want to do that. Why would you want to take the role of police officers who, by and large, are complaining about a lack of resource on the front line? I am confused by it.
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The chief constable will talk about ensuring that only warranted police officers are doing what a police officer can do.
Where things could perhaps be more efficient or effective, because police officers tend—I apologise, Ms McNeill, because “police officer” is probably a good way to describe it—
You do not need to apologise. I am just being honest. I am unsure about the reason for the change in terminology. The background is that there was a subtle change to say that we will not have police officers doing the job that they used to do.
No—
I do not think it is just me who is concerned about that; I think that the federation was also concerned. Do you know what I am talking about?
I know completely what you are talking about. Police officers get moved around, so where we can have consistency with a member of civilian police staff being able to do something, then they keep the expertise and there is a career path with that. Trade unions are very supportive of that. It is about ensuring that only police officers are deployed to do work that only a police officer can do.
We have a wee bit of time left, so I will come in with a couple of questions. The first is about overtime, which has been raised with other witnesses. It is fair to say that overtime is a not just a significant financial cost for Police Scotland, there is a wellbeing cost for police officers, with rest days being cancelled and overtime being required. We know that that is part of the nature of the role. Has the SPA been monitoring or looking at the impact of overtime?
I can speak to the finance aspect, and the committee has been looking at the wellbeing impact. Recently, a figure of about £30 million was quoted in the press for police overtime for 2023-24. The figure was roughly £28.7 million, so it is near enough to £30 million. We have a budget of around £25 million every year for overtime. It is required and it is recognised as a way of working for the police. Around this time last year, the financial challenge for 2023-24 became very apparent and there was a need to look at it. Police Scotland pulled back on the overtime—the spend would have been much more otherwise.
We have a standard budget every year for overtime, which includes core overtime, which is operational, and non-core overtime, which is for events. The need for overtime is recognised. I know that the SPA’s people committee is looking at the impact of overtime on operational levels and wellbeing. I will pass over to Ms McQueen.
Before Ms McQueen comes in, one of the earlier witnesses—I am not sure whether it was the chief constable—spoke about some of the work that has been done to pull the commitment arising from major events, such as football matches, parades, and so on, away from Police Scotland, to take a more risk-positive approach. I think that that was said in response to a question from Ben Macpherson. Purely from a budget perspective, could more be done in and around that?
As background, the charges for football matches and so on are approved every year. The budget is set in March. Those charges are based on a formula that is used across the UK. Under the financial framework, charges for an event must be made on the basis of cost recovery; there cannot be a profit. We cannot get any surplus from events that need policing. Earlier in the meeting, the superintendent was saying that, where they are confident that the promoters or organisers of an event can deliver a safe event, police will pull back. The range of rates for events is based on cost recovery.
Before I bring in Fiona McQueen, a couple of members have supplementary questions on the budgetary side of overtime.
On the basis of the financial situation that we are in, can Glasgow or Scottish policing afford the Commonwealth games?
I have no knowledge of what the policing costs for that would be. We have not been involved in the detail. My assumption is that a marginal cost or an additional cost would be refunded by the Commonwealth Games Federation.
We could pick that up in our pre-budget scrutiny, if it would be helpful.
How much engagement is there on scheduling? For example, in Edinburgh, when we have the August festivals, the additional pressure on the police service is obvious. If there are home games at Tynecastle or Easter Road against one of the big Glasgow clubs at the start of the football season, that has an added impact, and there will be a very big concert at Murrayfield during the festivals next year. Police Scotland have never said to me, an MSP who represents part of this city, that it has difficulties and is not able to meet that demand. It seems that there needs to be a logical approach to scheduling and considering the demands on the force.
I do not know whether anything happens on that at the Scottish Police Authority’s policing performance committee.
Those are known knowns. The vast majority of those events happen in Edinburgh and other Scottish cities, although events such as festivals also happen in rural Scotland. Police Scotland knows in advance about the majority of those things and my understanding is that it can schedule its shift patterns and the number of officers who are on duty within certain margins to accommodate those issues. That highlights the importance of effective strategic workforce planning and of having a co-ordinated approach to resourcing and making the best use of the resources that are available.
We certainly challenge Police Scotland on those issues and ask it to provide evidence that that is being done efficiently and effectively. It also ties in with the question of overtime. Police Scotland has to breathe in and breathe out, because although it can anticipate much of that demand, it also has a level of unanticipated demand by the very nature of being an emergency service. A reasonable amount of overtime helps—or deflects—the ability to breathe in and out in such situations.
I know that such conversations take place in Police Scotland, and those types of questions have been asked by our committees.
Do those conversations take place with the other parties that are involved?
My understanding is that there is a Scottish Government events group. For example, the Scottish Government would have co-ordinated last year’s road races in the cycling world championships with local authorities and policing.
I have no doubt that that happens at that level with central Government, but I am asking more about private sector organisations with private interests.
Could we come back to the committee to give a bit more information on that, convener?
I will bring in the chief executive in a moment on mental health and wellbeing in forensics. There are two sides to the overtime coin. To have the right number of people on duty, you might need to deploy overtime, which in itself might be exhausting. There are a number of factors. We have already heard from the chief constable about some of the inefficiencies in the justice system. Streamlining those could help to reduce the need for overtime. Having the right number of people in the workforce and getting probationers through so that we have enough police officers in post is part of it. That helps to reduce sickness absence and the need for overtime.
To answer the question, we look at that issue on the people committee. It is about balance. It is not about saying that we cannot have overtime because it is too expensive. As we have just heard, the police service needs surge capacity so that it has more people available for a particular weekend or week. That often involves overtime and rostering. Ideally, overtime should be as minimal as possible so that police officers can get their rostered break, refresh and come back to do the job that they are so passionate about.
I ask Lynn Brown to say something on that.
We have just talked about police officers and police staff. I know that the SPA would like the committee to understand forensics. Because of the nature of their work, scene examiners are regularly exposed to traumatic scenes. There used to be substantial levels of sickness in that area, and I would like to explain how forensic services have tackled that and continue to do so.
A comment was made earlier about the number of initiatives on wellbeing. There are a number of corporate initiatives that forensics can take part in and benefit from, and we have heard about them today. There is the employee assistance programme, the occupational health programme, TRiM and wellbeing champions, and there are particular initiatives for scene examiners. David Malcolm from Unison touched on that earlier. He mentioned the tasking unit, which he said helped with the wellbeing of forensics. Out of the 600 staff, around 100 are scene examiners. The unit also looks at shift patterns, and capability team managers have been put in place. They are now able to use the Police Scotland facility in Auchterarder for recovery. Forensic services are trying to understand short and long-term sickness much better and to act on that.
In addition, they are doing a psychological supervision project looking at the psychological impact of being a scene examiner to normalise support and reduce the stigma of asking for support. Ninety-three per cent of scene examiners have gone through a one-to-one meeting with an independent counsellor, which will be evaluated.
We want the committee to be aware of the actions that are being taken in that area.
Thank you for that update on the very important body of experts that is deployed on a regular basis. We appreciate that helpful update.
That takes us slightly over time, so I thank you all for coming along and providing very helpful evidence.
12:43 Meeting continued in private until 13:18.